Sam Rohrer: Well, welcome to Stand In The Gap today, I’m Sam Rohrer, and I want to start out right now with asking a question to all of you who are listening. If I were to ask you right now, why do you do what you do? For instance, the choices that you make, the decisions that you embrace, why do you make them? Do you do it so that you feel good about yourself after you’re done? Or maybe you don’t do something to avoid feeling bad about yourself. Do you make decisions and choices because you believe God will smile on you more if you do certain things, or that somebody else will praise you perhaps if you do, or maybe your peers will make fun of you if you don’t.
Well if you grew up during the 1980s and the ’90s in particular, and you were educated in public education, you would have been the participants in a grand social experimentation idea called self-esteem. That was the self-esteem movement. And it participated and worked together with a movement from B.F. Skinner’s techniques of behavioral modification.
You may remember such public school initiatives as, “You’re Okay, I’m Okay.” Remember that? Or maybe you were a part of magic circles that happened at the beginning of classes, because some people thought at that point that if you do bad things, it’s because you have a poor self image. So if you just teach them self-esteem and to think good about themselves, then good behavior and societal problems will cease. And that was actually carried into business, where success in business would be pretty much assured if you felt good about yourself.
Well, teaching people self-esteem, they said at that point if you would, it would also, believe it or not, end poverty. So there were actually public policy issues that were kind of revolved around this. Well an incident last week reminded me of the ingrained nature of this secular and, I’m gonna say, off-based thought. When I heard some comments from Twitter president and CEO, Jack Dorsey, when he temporarily removed Alex Jones from being able to communicate on Twitter. And I’m gonna play that short clip in just a moment, as we kick off this week’s program on this general theme today of how behavioral modification and the self-esteem movement leads to hell.
Yeah, I said that … you heard that right, leads to hell. With that introduction, I’m going to welcome you to Stand In The Gap today. I’m Sam Rohrer, and I’m accompanied today by Pastor Isaac Crockett. Our special guest is speaker, author, and advocate for Christian apologetics, and director of Christian Worldview and apologetics at the Christian Worldview Center of North Greenville University, Dr. Alex McFarland.
With that, let me welcome you, Alex, to the program today. Thanks for being with us.
Alex McFarland: Well, thank you, brothers, and it’s great to be with you. I appreciate all that you do for the kingdom and for our nation, and it’s always an honor to speak with you both.
Sam Rohrer: Well, it’s reciprocal, Alex, so we’re glad to have you on as well. And Isaac as well. Let me just ask you a question here, Isaac. What period of time did you spend in public school, growing up, or your K to 12 educational experience, when were you there?
Isaac Crockett: My K to 12 experience would have been late 80s and 90s.
Sam Rohrer: Okay, late 80s, so you’re right in the middle of that. And Alex, just out of curiosity for our listeners, when did you spend your K to 12 time?
Alex McFarland: I went to public school my entire life, graduated high school in ’82, so the bulk of my elementary and middle school would have been the mid to late 70s.
Sam Rohrer: Okay. So I preceded both of you. I was during the 60s, so that’s when I was there. Now, I would imagine that you or I or we’ve all heard this whole time out approach to students or children. It was in schools. It’s actually used a lot of places, and that was a classic example of combining behavioral modification with the self-esteem movement, that one was.
Let me play a clip here from Twitter president, CEO, Jack Dorsey, last week in an NBC interview, where they were asking Jack Dorsey why he did what he did to remove Alex Jones from some comments that he was making, and actually took him off of Twitter. We’re not talking about Alex Jones today, I’m just using this as an example for what Jack Dorsey did. Let’s play this short clip if we can.
Video: Any suspension, whether it be a permanent one or a temporary one, makes someone think about their actions and their behaviors, and-
You think Alex Jones is going to change his behavior based on a time out?
I don’t know. We have found that it does have the potential to change, impact and change behavior. So, whether it works within this case to change some of those behaviors and change some of those actions, I don’t know. But this is consistent with how we enforce.
Sam Rohrer: All right. Well, that was Jack Dorsey. I don’t know his exact age, but to me he looks like he’s in that age range where that’s probably where he went to school. But he said that’s his accepted practice. We’re going to take somebody and put him in time out.
Well, Alex, let me go to you first here. Your initial comments to what Jack Dorsey said, and I’m going to ask you about the appropriateness of the fact that he chose to use time out, a common behavioral management or modification technique, in this case saying that they’re going to maybe attempt to change Jones’ behavior. Or frankly, you can apply it to anybody that maybe big tech media is censoring today and trying to change behavior. What do you think about that?
Alex McFarland: Well, you know, so much about this, the whole culture that we live in today, where people are so easily offended, and there’s the assumption that there’s no such thing as absolute truth, and that there’s no right or wrong, we all make our own truth. All of this really goes back to the post World War Two era, the 60s up through the 70s, when a lot of influential thinkers began to change our view of truth, and a lot of legal decisions happened, and a number of things coalesced.
But I cannot overstate the impact of Benjamin Spock, Dr. Spock’s baby book in the 60s, and then in public education, a lot of people like Abraham Maslow and Carl Rogers and William James began to influence public education. So there’s two issues at play here. One is the way the culture thinks about truth, the way the culture thinks about discipline and accountability. But another issue at play that we really need to think seriously about is just the ubiquitous way that the internet and social media has on say into our lives.
I guess I would say this. For Christian, what are we going to do when what we’re allowed to think about, and what we’re able to speak about is really controlled by Twitter, social media, and the internet? I mean, I would say Christians have to understand that the world’s view of truth and behavior is very different than the Bible’s view of truth and behavior, and also, we’ve got to begin to decide now if we have the courage to speak the truth regardless of the repercussions, and are we savvy enough and resilient enough to be able to communicate truth in ways that don’t involve the internet, which is increasingly policed by the godless left.
Sam Rohrer: Well, I tell you, Alex McFarland, you just kind of set the stage here for us real well. I was going to go to Isaac in a little bit. I’ve got to hold it, but I wanted to find your experiences actually being in public school, ’cause I know you’ve experienced a lot of these things.
Based on the principles of operant conditioning, that’s what it was called, those are the techniques of behavioral modification, which also is known as behavior therapy, it was developed by American behaviorist B.F. Skinner, and lived between 1904 and 1990. It was Skinner who formulated the concept of operant conditioning, which he believed behavior of both human and animal behaviors could be shaped by reinforcement or lack of reinforcement. That is reward or punishment.
Intertwined with the concept of the self-esteem movement, which was brought mainstream, actually, frankly to a major initiative, passed into a law that was called the California Task Force to Promote Self-Esteem and Personal and Social Responsibility. It was signed by governor Deukmejian back in 1986. That law purpose was to explore how to apply self-esteem to a range of social problems. The logic, it believed, was this: If low self-esteem is tied to so many maladaptive responses and to so many forms of underachievement and bad behavior, then surely raising kids and others’ self-esteem could bring with it untold benefits.
So, combining these premises that you can train people like animals into preferred behaviors and actions, and the premise that people do bad things and fail to succeed because they don’t feel good about themselves, a dominant view of instruction, corporate training, societal and public policies incorporated this sure to succeed philosophy. Unfortunately, we all know it hasn’t worked.
The self-esteem movement has pretty much fallen now out of favor, actually being replaced with a new what they call Grit Movement, grit meaning just keep at it and keep working, and you can ultimately succeed. But I’m afraid that both of these approaches fall dangerously short and have had a tremendous impact on our culture. We’re gonna talk about it in this next segment.
Alex, let me bring you back in now. You are an author, you are a pastor, you’re a speaker, you are an advocate for Christian apologetics, and you teach people of all ages. You actually teach college students now. In your opinion, in your studied opinion, what’s been the primary impact, if you look at the broader American culture, of the result of a generation or more of self-esteem, feel good about yourself type teaching, and behavior modification techniques, which have really served to kind of embed this mentality? What would you say would be an overarching characteristic that has been a result of all of this?
Alex McFarland: Wow, that is a great question, Sam. In terms of the impact on the church, I would say 60 plus years of secular psychology influencing the culture, definitely influencing public education, it’s had an impact on the church. Now, you know, Romans 8-
Sam Rohrer: Now let’s if we can, if we can, let’s hold the church to the next segment, if we can, Alex-
Alex McFarland: Sure. Okay.
Sam Rohrer: Let’s go culture here, more broadly culture. What you see with the students coming in, ’cause I want to go to the church next, ’cause I think it’s actually found its way there too. But let’s stay in the culture here right now if we can.
Alex McFarland: Well, as much as I love young people and I love to work with young people, I would say that vast majority of American young people, and I don’t say this necessarily through any fault of their own, it’s just the world they have been steeped in, and the parenting skills of the last 50 years, most people today have an extreme unquestioned narcissism, a mentality of entitlement, and frankly, the selfishness that’s present in our sin nature anyway has been trained to be on trigger at all times.
You can barely go shopping anymore without seeing some irate customer giving clerks a verbal beat down for just the slightest thing. And so we live in a culture where people are so self-oriented, it has just become doctrine that everything is about me, and heaven help the person that tries to say otherwise.
Things like just common courtesy and selflessness and generosity and forgiveness, and just being gracious to each other. People ask why has the culture become so harsh and trigger happy, it’s because for half a century, it’s been drilled into children coming up that it’s all about you.
Sam Rohrer: Yeah.
Alex McFarland: We have become our own god, and that’s the result of secular psychology.
Sam Rohrer: Interesting. Okay, all right. That’s a great setup. Isaac, let me go to you, ’cause you’ve taught in public schools, you’ve been a part of actually … anyways, I want you to explain it a little bit, but you’ve seen a lot of these things, and you’ve seen the results of it. I’d like to know from you, in your opinion, has there been any positive aspect to the self-esteem movement and behavior modification reinforcement techniques? Is there anything positive to it that you have seen, and if not, or even if there is, I’d like to also know from you, what are the negative impacts that you have seen right there being in a classroom many times.
Isaac Crockett: Yeah, I guess I’ve seen more negative than positive. I’m sure there are cases perhaps where, you know, similar to the Me Too movement or something, where somebody who has been abused has been maybe given a voice by being listened to more because of this style of ideology. But most of what I have noticed is it went the other way, the other extreme.
I can think of one young man that I taught in one of my classes, and he was very narcissistic. He was exactly what Alex just described, and he went through the system and just became more narcissistic so that if he didn’t get his way, he would threaten to kill us in gruesome ways and things like that. He actually ended up killing one of his classmates who was from that same school, who they’d been actually friends, over a small argument, he shot him in the head on the porch right in front of that classmate’s mother, and the young man died in his mom’s arms.
So, I’ve seen to that extent, and I’ve seen a lot of things in between, teaching all the way from kindergartners up through 12th graders. In that one case, I had a lot of experience with that young man who took the other one’s life, and I feel like he had grown up with video games and in the classroom and everything was just all about him, and it was this alternate reality.
I also at the same time feel like I was often challenged by young people, well who’s to say you get to make the rules. Who’s the final authority? And when you have a behavioral modification or any kind of morality being pushed on somebody without Jesus Christ, without the true God of the Bible, then that can put the wrong kind of power out there. I think of my dad talking about the Soviet Union back before the fall of the iron curtain when he smuggled Bibles in, and they were forced to wear modest dress and the men to behave certain ways. They couldn’t be near the women and things like that.
So they forced it in these totalitarian regimes, much like in Islam, they force things, but when you don’t have the change of Jesus Christ of the Bible, when you have just be good for goodness’ sake, you have Andy Griffith and the Walton’s and Little House on the Prairie, where Christianity was just about just being good for the sake of being good, then it kind of goes into actually what I saw just a few days ago. I saw Dr. McFarland, Alex McFarland on a news cast, I think it was Fox News, and they were talking about the sex abuse scandals of the Catholic church, and he was saying, well we’ve started forcing these ideologies, celibacy and all these other things that aren’t really Biblical, instead of focusing on Jesus Christ. And so I guess I should turn this over back to you, because it really, it leads there though, that with our children, if we modify their behavior without giving them Christ, we really haven’t changed the heart or the person.
Sam Rohrer: Isaac, you set that up really well because you laid out exactly the things that you were seeing, that we have seen. Alex, I want to go back to you, because you are a Christian apologist. We here on this program, we talk a lot about a Biblical worldview, the authority of scripture. You were going down that road already, talking about the God component. I’d like to ask you to build out here a little bit if we can here.
The self-esteem movement, B.F. Skinner’s behavioral therapy approaches, all of those things were geared to helping to produce a perfect society, a better ordered society where people treated each other well, all that kind of thing. But, and Isaac mentioned it, there was one major missing component. Lay it out. What’s the missing component, why has not that worked, and then we’re going to then walk into the church, because that’s where that actually goes.
Alex McFarland: You know what Sam, I’ve got to say this. I think if the Lord doesn’t come back, if history goes on several hundred more years, and that’s a questionable assertion in itself, but if history continues on a few more centuries, I honestly think that people will someday look back, maybe in mystification or if not horror, at the ways in which people like Charles Darwin, Joseph Fletcher, Sigmund Freud, B.F. Skinner, and Carl Young, how these people influenced even the church … because I read the Bible, and I don’t read anywhere that we’re supposed to build our self-esteem.
I mean, I honestly think the only verse that even comes close to talking about self-esteem is when Paul says, I am what I am by the grace of God, you know? He says that. He could have beat himself up for persecuting Christians, ordering the martyrdom of Stephen, or he could have vaulted himself by saying I wrote over half of the New Testament.
But Paul understands not self-esteem, but Christ esteem, that everything we are … the Bible says our life is hid with Christ and God. And nowadays, the fact that so many denominations, so many pastors, they would not dare, they would not dare preach against sin and preach on 1 Corinthians 6, and this list of those that if they don’t repent and turn to Jesus will not go to heaven. I hear just weekly from pastors, in fact I heard from a pastor this morning who lost several families because he preached a sermon against homosexuality.
Sam Rohrer: Changing gear, moving a little bit now into the impact on the church, you know, the integration of godless and humanly designed strategies for changing individual and cultural behavior, you know, it never works out well, it never has. Where God has no role or where God’s procedures for life and living are either negated or rejected were the owner’s manual for human thought and actions. The owner’s manual, that’s the Bible.
Where that is discarded, there can be no good lasting result. In fact, the result is that those philosophies that have removed God from the picture will ultimately not lead a person to heaven, but will lead them directly to hell in eternal separation from God.
The question is, when it comes to teaching, setting acceptable behaviors, determining self-worth, embracing right reasons for right behaviors, the church should be setting the standard. But is it? And if not, why not? We’re going to discuss now behavioral modification and the church. This is the next segment. And then the final segment, we’re going to talk about finding true self-worth and success.
Our guest today, Dr. Alex McFarland. He’s a speaker, author, and advocate for Christian apologetics. And with that, I want to welcome you back, Alex, to the program. And I want to go right into it here. You were beginning to go down the road of the church in the last segment, and I said hold off just a minute, let’s talk about the culture first. Now, let’s go to the church. And you began in the last segment, to talk about … and Isaac, you mentioned as well, that the one major element that’s left out of the whole self-esteem movement of the past, behavioral modification techniques of reward and punishment, the one lacking, the one lacking element is God himself, and absolute truth.
Alex, in our modern culture, where we’ve essentially eliminated God and moral truth, we’ve rejected absolute truth, we’ve embraced operant conditioning based on reward and punishment, almost like one would teach a dog. Has the church, and are Christians at large doing or thinking anything really substantively different, and if not, what’s been the impact on the church? Has the church been impacting the culture, has the culture been impacting the church?
Alex McFarland: By the way, thank you for having me, it is truly an honor to be on with you both. I have such a respect for both of you and for the great work you do with the American Pastor’s Network. And I gotta say this. I was listening during the break, and I would encourage everybody to please pray, participate, and as God leads you, to support, ’cause Sam, you’re doing a phenomenal work.
But I can prove, to your question, I can prove that the world is influencing the church. And I’ll say this, and I give God the glory, but in the last 25 years, been on the road 45 weekends a year for 25 years, been in 2200-2300 churches. I cringe whenever I hear the great hymn Amazing Grace because in three fourths of the churches I’m in, if they sing “Amazing Grace, they’ll sing Amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved someone like me.” Now, Sam, you’re a veteran churchman, as am I. What’s the real lyric, do you remember?
Sam Rohrer: No.
Alex McFarland: “Amazing grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me.”
Sam Rohrer: Oh yes, okay. Sorry. Yes. Mm-hmm (affirmative). A wretch.
Alex McFarland: So when that hymn was written in 1748, and John Newton wrote, “Amazing grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me.” But in most of the churches I’m in, any alas and did my savior bleed and did my sovereign die, would he devote that sacred head, the song says for such a worm as I. First of all, if they even sing an old hymn like that, the new hymn books, I mean, you look and the brand new hymn books will say, would he devote that sacred head to save someone like me.
So, we don’t like to think of ourself as a worm or as a wretch, or certainly as a sinner who’s offended a holy, merciful God and on our way to hell. One of my dear friends in the ministry just texted me listening to the broadcast, Eric [Pace 00:23:20], who’s a pastor and a counselor himself, and he said, it all boils down to authority. And here’s the bottom line. Are we gonna trust our heart or are we gonna trust God’s word? Because Jeremiah 17 warns us that the heart is deceitful and wicked above all things, who can know it. And what that means is we don’t even comprehend our own capacity for sin, for self deception.
So, regarding where I stand with God, what my purpose is, morality, we must, we must trust the word of God rather than our own fallen nature and flawed perspective.
Sam Rohrer: Alex, let me … hold that. That’s exactly, that’s right on the mark. Let me go here, just another question and build it out. The other day something came in to my attention here, relative to the matter of behavioral modification. And again, this piece that you’re talking about, our worth and how that is found, and what you’re describing there is a key element of it. But I have found that there are many of those who recommend, that even in Christian child rearing or Christian education, examples, for instance … a teacher or a mom or dad will say to a student or a child who’s taking a toy away from some brother or sibling or a classmate, however the example may be, bad behavior’s not happening or is occurring, that the instructor will say, “Now Johnny, you don’t do that. Don’t do that because when you do that, Jesus is not happy with you.”
Now, there’s an aspect about that that is true, but there’s an aspect about it that when if that’s all that’s said, how are we teaching … what are our students or our children actually learning about themselves and God’s pleasure? Do you know what I’m asking on that? I think this is pretty profound. How would you respond to that?
Alex McFarland: I would say when we say things like that, we’re really teaching that the love of God is conditional. I can placate God by behaving a certain way or not. The reality is, we’re sinners, but we’re valuable to God and He loves us. So I think it’s much more positive and Biblical to help people of all ages to understand, as Billy Graham said, “God loves us so much that He doesn’t leave us as we are.”
And we say this or that behavior is wrong. To tell a lie, it’s not that it makes Jesus unhappy, it’s that it is wrong. Now let me throw something in here, folks, that we probably don’t hear talked about too much. But people ask me when I speak at universities and I’ll do Q&A, they’ll say, “You know, why is God on some cosmic ego trip that He wants us to worship Him or to live righteously?” The answer is … folks, please get what I’m about to say. Even in commanding us to repent, turn from sin to Christ and live righteously, that is an act of love on God’s part. Why? Because look, if the whole wide world behaves morally, righteously, does that aggrandize God or make Him better? No, God doesn’t change. Malachi 3, Hebrews 13. Jesus doesn’t change. Okay.
Even in calling us to amend our lives in light of God’s revelation, God is showing us love, because friend, the most alive you’ll ever be, the happiest you’ll ever be, the most at peace, the most purposeful, contented, joyful, alive you’ll ever be is the closer you are to Jesus. So even in mandating, admit you’re a sinner, turn from your sin, come to Jesus, walk right, it doesn’t help God or change God. He is showing us love by calling us to repent.
And let me say, the pastors that won’t address sin and the pastors that are coddling lost people straight into hell, they are not showing love. They are actually fostering people’s spiritual lostness.
Sam Rohrer: So Alex, we’re going into the break here. So, when we deal with children or students, to not acknowledge God, obviously wrong. To not acknowledge sin, wrong. To not acknowledge that God expects holiness in His standards is wrong. So therefore, we have to talk about those hard things … sin, all of that comes together though for helping us to understand what it is true self-worth, when we understand how God puts it all together.
Well not only is it critical to know that God does bless obedience to His word, that sin is a reproach to any people, and that God does get angry over sin. It is important to know that we should desire to please and glorify God in all that we do. Now that is really part of a Biblical worldview.
Our attitudes and our actions should mirror God’s standards for thought and living, and His standards should be our standards, His purposes our purposes, and His ways our ways. Failure to recognize God as creator, Lord, and master, not only leads to misery and judgment, but ultimately to a real live hell away from the presence of God forever.
But that’s not God’s goal. In fact, it’s the exact opposite of God’s plan for redemption for all mankind, and therein is where we find true self-worth and self-esteem. That’s where it’s realized, and that’s where the correct motivation for right behavior and actions begin.
Now, I discussed this in this last segment here. I want to bring back in Dr. Alex McFarland, and we’re gonna talk about finding true self-worth and true success.
Alex, we were talking a little bit about it in the last segment, but it’s important to have a positive view of one’s self, I mean, it really is. We need to be confident, we need to have hope, we have to have purpose. We need to have goals in life. Those are necessary things, but as we’ve talked about, it can’t happen without God. So, share with us if you can, in just simple terms, the Biblical formula for finding true self-worth, and from that, true success in life.
Alex McFarland: Oh, God bless you. God bless you. What a great question. The formula, or the reality is to see life from God’s perspective. You know, Oswald Chambers in his wonderful book, My Utmost For His Highest, he said that in life we must, quote, “Vigilantly maintain God’s perspective.” And so the truth is, God loves us, God made us, life has purpose, and you know, Isaiah 55:7 says, “Return to God, and He will abundantly pardon.” Joel 2:25 says, “God can restore the years the locust has eaten.” John 10:28 says, “Nothing can pluck us out of His hands.” And John 6:37, Jesus said, “The one who comes to me I will not reject.”
So let me just boil it down to this, Sam. Origin, purpose, and destiny. Every worldview has an answer to the question, where did we come from, why are we here, where are we going? Secular psychology and behavior modification and the self-esteem movement says there is no God, we evolved through the primordial soup, undirected chance. There is no ultimate purpose in life, there is no ultimate morality or [helios 00:31:19] or design. And destiny, well, we’ll probably either burnout or freeze out, and in billions of years from now, the universe will fizzle out. It’s hopelessness.
I mean, think about this, Sam. If you tell a child that they are nothing but a sophisticated gibbon, if you tell a child long enough that he’s nothing but an animal, he’ll begin to act like it, and that’s what we see. Now, in the Christian view, our origin, we’re created by an infinitely wise, powerful God. The purpose of life is that we can realize that God made us, we can know God, and though we are sinners and sin has grave consequences, but God loves us, and God has made provision at great extents. God sent His only son to pay for our sin debt.
Now everyone listen, please get this if you’ve ever wondered does God love me. Think about this. The appropriate measure of punishment that our sins merit, the amount of God’s wrath that I deserved was poured onto Jesus, and He lovingly took it. And either we pay for our own sins, which would mean hell, or we can accept that Jesus paid for our sins. And Sam, not only is there heaven, that’s wonderful enough, but in this life … and I will tell you, when I found Jesus at age 21, and I was a lost college student, arrogant, I was so full of myself, I’m ashamed at who I was, Sam.
But Jesus came into my life, and suddenly everything changed. I knew my sins were forgiven. I went from flunking out of college, being thrown in a dumpster … Greensboro, North Carolina, I was passed out drunk at a fraternity party. For a joke, some boys threw me in the dumpster, and I woke up on a Saturday morning, and I thought, this is appropriate because I’m throwing my life away. Who would have known that God would allow me to finish my education, go into the ministry, have an incredibly Godly wife.
But I want to say to everyone listening, the purpose of life is that God will save you and God will bless you and use you, but first you have to humble yourself, and you have to admit, I am not God. I don’t call the shots. The wisest thing I could ever do is to realize that I don’t have all the answers. The most uplifting thing I could ever do is to bow before my maker and say, “Jesus, I’m sorry for my sins. Please save me, and you become the Lord of my life.”
See Sam, if we’re the lord of our own life, if we’re god, it’s ugly. But when we turn to God, it can become something beautiful.
Sam Rohrer: Absolutely, Alex. Ladies and gentlemen, I hope that you’re listening. This is a matter of real hope, because when we know … those of you who are listening, if you have truly trusted Jesus Christ as your personal savior, and you know that you’re now a son or daughter of God, and we recognize that we are loved of the Father, we have access to the Father through Jesus Christ, that we are His children and all the benefits that go with that, and we are ambassadors for Jesus Christ, we have a calling that is significant … when we understand those things, that’s where self-worth and real, true Biblical confidence comes from. It’s not in us, but it’s because of what Christ has done.
That makes a difference, and when that is there, then we can talk about obedience, we can talk about proper behavior. But really until the things happen in right order, it doesn’t make sense. The world goes the direction it has, and look where it ends up … because Jesus, what the Bible says, God’s way, we know where that ends up, and Alex just talked about that.
Alex, I want to shift here, just briefly in the last minute. You have an event coming up in Tennessee. Tell us just a little bit about it for our listeners that are down that way, particularly those who may be able to attend.
Alex McFarland: Oh, well thank you so much. TruthForANewGeneration.com is the website, and you spell that F-O-R, TruthForANewGeneration.com. September 14-15, our tour, the Save A Nation tour comes to the Nashville, Tennessee area. Incredible speakers like Josh McDowell, J. Warner Wallace, Michael Brown, and many more. But folks, please plan to attend the Truth for a New Generation conference. It’s all about Biblical worldview, it’s all about defending the faith, but it’s really equipping a generation to stand for Christ and save America.
Sam, we’re gonna be in 20-some cities over the next five years, so I would just encourage people to pray, and the next one there in the greater Nashville area. We hope to see you there, and the website again is TruthForANewGeneration.com.
Sam Rohrer: Okay. That’s September 14th through the 19th, is that correct?
Alex McFarland: 14th-15th. Two days.
Sam Rohrer: Okay, the 14th and the 15th. Where in Tennessee?
Alex McFarland: We’re gonna be at New Vision Baptist Church, a very wonderful church just 30 minutes from the Nashville airport.
Sam Rohrer: All right. TruthForANewGeneration.org?
Alex McFarland: Com.
Sam Rohrer: .com. TruthForANewGeneration.com, ladies and gentlemen. Go there, and if you’re in the Tennessee area, make a drive, plan on attending that.