Isaac Crockett: Hello, I’m Isaac Crockett, and joining me today is the president of the American Pastors Network, Sam Rohrer, you’re regular host of this program, and as we get started we have a special guest we’ll be introducing in just a few moments. But I wanted to look at an article about a family friend of mine, and the article was written by Alison Chew, it was in the Washington Post this morning. It’s about Vice President Mike Pence. He and my father were very close friends and prayed a lot together, in my dad’s last days and things. At that time, Governor Pence was a close friend of his who prayed for him a lot, and did a lot of special things for our family.
He was speaking for those who were graduating from Liberty University last week, and this article is about his speech there at their graduation. I want to discuss some of what he said in this article, but here’s a little clip from that article. It starts with a quote from Vice President Mike Pence. He said this, “Some of the loudest voices for tolerance today have little tolerance for traditional Christian beliefs.” And then the journalist goes on and writes, she said, “Pence, who is an evangelical Christian, told the roughly eight thousand graduates at the ceremony.” And then it quotes Pence again, “As you go about your daily life, just be ready because you’re going to be asked not just to tolerate things that violate your faith, you’re going to be asked to endorse them. You’re going to be asked to bow down to the idols of the popular culture.” Referencing the Hebrew children in Babylon.
And then another quote from that article that’s quoting Mike Pence, it says, “Throughout most of American history, it’s been pretty easy to call yourself Christian, ” Pence said Saturday. “But things are different now.” With that I’d like to again thank you for tuning in and listening to us today, but things are different now, and we want to talk today about how do we live in this different world? How do we live and show forth Christian civility in really an uncivilized world? So you know, I just want to thank you for listening to us, and I would like to encourage you to visit us online at our website, standinthegapradio.com. There you can access archives of our radio and our TV programs.
And real quick Sam, could you just let our listeners know a little bit about some of our TV programs, maybe some of what’s coming up this week and next week on our Stand in the Gap TV.
Sam Rohrer: Absolutely Isaac. And we have a full schedule. You are my co-host on that program, obviously. You didn’t say that, but I am saying to people when you go to the TV program, it’s a half hour weekly, and we cover key themes. Cultural issues that are not going out of style immediately. On this program here today, our radio program, we tend to deal with headline news. But here are just three coming up. This week our special guest is Dr. Joel Chernoff, Messianic Jewish Alliance as he’s with, and we’re talking about advocating for Israel. Why we should be focused on Israel, why we talk about that a lot, and we’re talking specifically the one state solution and why that is so critical. Frankly, it’s involved in headline news over there right now.
Now coming up, in the two weeks following that, the week after, we’ll have a special guest back on, Dr. Mark Christian. Mark was an Egyptian born individual, born into Islam. One of his uncles actually was a leader of founding the Muslim Brotherhood, but he was an Imam at a young age, having memorized most of the Quran, and the Lord saved him when he was 25 years of age. But we’re going to be talking with him on a very important theme, and that is this. We’re calling it, Truth of Fiction: God and Allah, Are They the Same?
Key issue. We’re going to deal with that and then the week after we’re talking about the constitutional oath of office, Isaac. If you recall we did that program. And that question there is can a Muslim, or an atheist as far as that matter, actually uphold the Constitutional oath here in American when they take it going into office? So key issues, key themes, very, very good guests.
Isaac Crockett: And again, you can find archives of the TV and the radio programs by visiting standinthegapradio.com, and you can also follow us on social media to get up to date information. The latest information going on at APN or Stand in the Gap. You can follow our Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, things like that. Speaking of social media, I have a lot of friends, and Sam you’ve probably had the similar situation and maybe you even find yourself in a similar situation, that they are getting off of social media, or they’re taking long breaks from social media, because nowadays it seems like social media is anything but social sometimes. Especially when you have a Biblical worldview and you get into things going on in our government.
So today, to help us walk through these issues, to help us remember our calling as Christians, that we are to have a civility about us even in an uncivilized world, we have a long time friend… in fact Sam and Jeff go back a long time together, back when Jeff was just a kid I guess you could almost say… their friendship goes. And so the honorable Jeff Coleman, former Pennsylvania State Representative and the author of the book, With All Due Respect. He’s been on our program before, but he’s back with us. Thank you Jeff for making the time to be on with us today.
Jeff Coleman: Isaac, glad to be on with you, and good to be on with my friend Sam, absolutely.
Isaac Crockett: Jeff, in your book that you wrote a couple years back about civility, you tell about your political campaign in which you chose to, and I’m quoting from you in the book, “Engage in no negative or misleading campaign against my opponent.” And you also wrote in the book, you said, “This little book is a request for its readers to reconsider the value of meekness and humility in public life.” Jeff, could you remind us again why you felt that you needed to write this book about civility?
Jeff Coleman: Well I think that there’s a connection, Isaac, between what you read from what Vice President Pence said at Liberty, my alma mater, this last weekend, which is very clear. And I don’t think it should come as a surprise that persecution is coming. The question is, how do Christians respond when the popular culture no longer affirms, or supports, or honors the Christian values that we defend; when it is no longer reflected as the leading popular culture? It’s no longer respectable to be a Christian, a country club member, you know, you drive a respectable Ford, you have a two car garage. All those things used to go together. When you take those away, I think what happened, and one of the reasons I wrote the book, is there’s a sense that we’re losing something. That something is being lost. So we have to rush in and defend it. But Jesus kind of comes in and his words to us are, “In this world you will have trouble. But fear not, I have overcome the world.”
So if that’s the case, if that’s the truth, Christians should be the most calm, civil… I hate to use the word… but relaxed. Not relaxed on vacation, but relaxed in a calm, projecting a calm demeanor. I think we need to be the ones that on social media and other places, can take it. We can take all of it. And instead of responding like we might expect to respond when someone punches us in the nose, it’s when we have a meekness and a kindness and we take it. And we take it and say, “We love you.” That’s our response. Or like the woman at the pro-life protest last week. She says, “I forgive you, and I’m praying for you.” I mean, what a difference Christians can be in this popular culture.
Isaac Crockett: Welcome back to our program. I’m Isaac Crockett, and I’m joined here by Sam Rohrer, he’s the president of the American Pastors Network. And we started the program out by reading a quote from a Washington Post article from, actually it was quoting Vice President Mike Pence, where he said, “Some of the loudest voices for tolerance today, have little tolerance for traditional Christian beliefs.” And that we have our special guest with us, the Honorable Jeff Coleman, and we’re talking about this. Just recently, some video that took place just a couple weeks ago or so, came out of a Pennsylvania State Representative, Brian Sims, who is one who himself is pushing for different bills, tolerance and equality. He sees himself as very open-minded, very progressive, a champion really for women’s rights and LGBTQ rights. And yet in this video that he put out on the internet of himself, he seems to be very intolerant because of people that are doing Christian things, praying in front of a Planned Parenthood.
Tim, we could we go ahead and play just a brief part of the clip from Representative Brain Sims.
Audio: Representative Brian Sims here, and I’m once again out in front of Planned Parenthood of Southeastern Pennsylvania. Today’s protester now, she is an old white lady who’s going to try to avoid showing you her face. Shame on you. What you’re doing here is disgusting. This is wrong. You have no business being out here.
Isaac Crockett: All right. So that was part of the first video that kind of went viral and pulled a large reaction from pro-life groups. Jeff, just before we get into really the content of that video, just talking about Representative Sims, who again, in his mind he’s really championed the rights of people who are maybe underprivileged or hiding kind of from the main stream. Did you know him? I don’t think he was elected to State Assembly until 2012. So I’m just curious, if before this recent publicity, you knew him or if you’ve known much about him leading up to this video?
Jeff Coleman: Well I know a lot about him because he’s certainly gotten a lot of ink. I don’t know him. Probably the only time I’ve ever had an encounter is to say, “Hello” in the hallway in the State Capitol. But he’s a prominent figure. He’s a figure who has received a lot of state and national attention within the LGBTQ communities, on the cover of a lot of magazines, and has been touted as a role model for LGBT young people at youth, and for a new kind of activism which many Democrats and progressives have embraced, which is a much more aggressive style publicly, privately, on the floor. And they say it’s in reaction to what we did. We say it’s not, and this is kind of, we’re in one of those moments where people said, “Well who started it first?” And both of us have to… both sides have to examine what are the tactics, what are the approaches that are hurtful and what are the tactics that are helpful, to help people be persuaded to your opinion. This is certainly not the way to do it.
Sam Rohrer: Jeff, I think you probably watched the video. I did as well. The woman that he was talking about there, the old white woman, the way he was filming, because he was holding it… the people didn’t see it… he was actually kind of filming it probably with his phone. He was talking into it and he was trying to follow this woman around on the sidewalk, and she was just praying. She was trying not to put her face in the picture, so he was making a big deal about her turning away, and so forth. But I never saw her engage at all.
But what stuck out to me, was the fact that he emphasized a number of times, “It is wrong. Wrong that you are out here doing this.” Which she was just praying. I’m kind of curious with you, what stood out to you in regard to what he was saying? Did it happen to catch your sense as well, now I don’t want to set you up in a way here Jeff, because you could go a direction on your own. But as I’ve sensed, that we’d been in office together in the past, I know this when we look at it, everyone who’s there who comes from a perspective, have a tendency to believe that what they believe is right.
They may be on completely different sides of the equation. In this case, the woman was there praying quietly, not doing anything. She was there because she thought she was doing the right thing. Brian said you are doing the wrong thing. He evidently thought he was doing the right thing. Speak to that a little bit as well, because ultimately people are driven by what they think to be right, I think.
Jeff Coleman: Yeah, we’re in a moment Sam, you’re right, where everyone is convinced in their heart that they are right. The result of that is, if you believe you are right, then you have to embrace means that will get you the outcome if you are not winning in the courts or winning elections. Sometimes, as conservatives, we win. And I’ve noticed that when we’re in the losing phase, we get a little more creative about the tactics that we use when we are on what appears to be the losing side. For the Christian, the Christian can go ahead and take the long view, and say look because our job is to be faithful representatives of Christ in the public square, we can approach people that we disagree with and we don’t have to use the same tactics.
The challenge with the technology that’s in our hands right now, the ability to broadcast live. When you used to have to pay thousands of dollars, when you and I were in the State Capitol, not that long ago Sam, it costs thousands of dollars for us to do a satellite uplink from the State Capitol to a station in Pittsburgh, or a station in Omaha, if we wanted to defend or advocate a position. Now all you have to do is hit a button on your phone and you can livestream to potentially… and his audience, Representative Sims, has a massive national audience. Almost, you can conceivably now say that Brian Sims with that video, reaches more people with that video than say the highest rated show on CNN or MSNBC or Fox, because of the replays of that video.
And all he had to do for eight minutes was to be a reporter, an aggressive reporter, kind of the old 20/20 or 60 Minutes style reporting of chasing down, you know, people who he thought were wrongdoers. And that’s how twisted this gets when we think someone is doing the wrong thing. We now have this powerful weapon in our pockets, the iPhone, and all of the other mimicked technologies that are out there, to broadcast our behavior live and to try to shame people into believing one way or the other. It’s a moment we have not prepared for.
Isaac Crockett: Jeff, how can we prepare for that? As Christians, how do we get ready? What is our ultimate goal and how do we prepare to check ourselves so that we don’t damage the message? And I think maybe even the example of this lady who was praying, she has in a lot of ways avoided the limelight, but how do we do it the right way? We have about three minutes left in this part of the program.
Jeff Coleman: Well this lady gave us the first step, which is her response to Representative Sims wasn’t a lawsuit. It wasn’t to raise money, it wasn’t to have a fundraiser online, it wasn’t to host a rally, it wasn’t to have signs printed up. She didn’t place herself in the role of victim. She knew, as a follower of Christ, what the response was. So she told Channel 6 News in Philadelphia, here’s what she said, she said, “I forgive him,” didn’t say his name, “I forgive him and I’m praying for him.” And then here was her challenge. “I think other people should too.” Now I know that people might want to pray those imprecatory prayers from the psalms, you know, against someone who is our enemy.
But I don’t think she was praying that way. I don’t know her, but I think she was praying for him to feel genuine love. I think she was praying for his heart to be softened, because imagine what would happen if someone who was your enemy, suddenly is changed by the power of the Gospel. That’s what we want. And we don’t get responses of beautiful conversion stories when we’re chasing people down or drawing a sword in return. I’m not saying lay down, I’m saying the most powerful thing we can do is pray for our enemies. And to overwhelm them with love. That’s counter-cultural, it’s radical, but it’s the example that Jesus gave us.
Isaac Crockett: And that’s the most powerful example there is. Sam, do you have anything to add to this? We’re going to get into it more in the next segment, but we have about a minute here. Any other things you wanted to add to this discussion?
Sam Rohrer: Well Isaac, I think what Jeff said there is really quite good. You know when you have the truth, as Christ laid it out, and it’s kind of interesting. It’s a balance we have to keep. Christ said when he came, he said, “I did not come to bring peace, I brought a sword.” Now that often can be misunderstood. In simple terms he said the truth cuts and divides. When we articulate truth well, as Christ did, it will bring people to a point of decision. When they decide in favor of truth, and what the Bible said what Christ says, through God’s love manifested through Christ, that will bring peace. And that’s the peace that Christ was talking about. If there’s a rejection of the truth, truth being Jesus Christ, truth being the word of God, the unchanging truth… when a person rejects that truth, that’s when there becomes chaos and division and trouble in a person’s life.
So as a believer, who all of us having once been on the side where we had no peace, we should be able to embody the truth, deliver the truth in our words and our actions as Christ did, so that when we confront people who are searching for the truth, you know, they say, “What’s different about you?” Which is exactly what they did to the early Christians in the early church and gave them a great opportunity to say, “Well let me tell you about the person who can bring peace, and that is the Prince of Peace.” That’s really the picture. If we do that, it’s powerful.
Isaac Crockett: Well as we look at this topic of this increasing hostility toward Christian beliefs, I want to read from a young lady who wrote in her autobiography, as she detailed in this book, how she went from a conservative Christian kid, in a Bible believing home, to in her college age years eventually having an abortion, to then working for Planned Parenthood, and even having a second abortion. Then eventually leaving Planned Parenthood and becoming a pro-life advocate. This of course is the autobiography titled, Unplanned. It was written by Abby Johnson, and here’s one of the things she writes in the book.
She said, “My story is not neat and tidy. It doesn’t come wrapped in easy answers. Oh how we love to vilify our opponents from both sides. How easy to assume that those on our side are right, and wise and good. And how those on their side are treacherous, and foolish, and deceptive. I have found right and good and wisdom on both sides. I have found foolishness and treachery and deception on both sides as well. I have experienced how good intentions can be warped into poor choices no matter what the side.”
And then Abby also write this, and then I’m going to ask a question to our guest, Jeff. But she writes this and she says, “I was loved from one side onto the other. My hope is that many more thousands will be loved into truth as well. Maybe you will be the one loving someone on the other side of the fence.” Jeff, you’ve seen this autobiography on the big screen. Unplanned became a movie that many of our listeners have probably watched, and I think all of us have heard of and seen the advertisements for. Jeff, when you saw this story, Unplanned, and then you’ve seen the reaction as they’ve had, many, many people… scores of people… who are in the abortion industry who have been moved by this movie, and many others. What has been your reaction to this movie, or to this story of Abby Johnson?
Jeff Coleman: Well it’s a powerful story in many levels, I think, but most striking is that you go on the journey with Abby from being a… as you described, from a nominally, you know, maybe evangelical Christian home… to thinking about, to buying into the idea that Planned Parenthood really is about planning and parenthood, as a college student volunteering for Planned Parenthood. And you’ll run into many, many people today who have this story of Planned Parenthood from their connection at college. They helped me get birth control, or I was able to get some tests there. And all of the things you might be able to get at a CVS mini clinic. Planned Parenthood has this special connection to many young women, no matter how much information the pro-life movement has been able to get out about what they’re true intentions are.
But the beauty of the movie is that Abby Johnson is loved into health by a praying Christian couple. A young Christian couple who called her by her name, who learned who she was, who found out how they could be a part of her life. She also had a husband who was a believer and a Christian. I know many people who say, “Well how could that possibly be, that in a Christian home one person is driving to work at the abortion clinic and the other person is staying at home watching the child?” I mean none of this feels like it makes sense, but we know how easy it is to get upside down in our thinking about things.
How you can easily take the idea of helping women by unburdening them of the responsibility of parenthood. “You’re not ready for that.” Or all of the calculated approaches that Planned Parenthood takes. This movie exposes that in a very gentle way. But does something, Isaac and Sam, that I think we all have to do, which is give people a way out. Show them look, if you’re convinced of my argument, you may not be able to admit it now, but I want you to feel comfortable sending me a Facebook message. Or I want you to feel comfortable picking up the phone and calling me or writing me or coming to my door if you’ve read something that I said on Facebook.
Too often, our communications say we believe, we affirm, we stand, this is where we are. And the assumption is, if I was the broken person on the way to the abortion clinic, that these people aren’t going to love me. They’re going to tell me what I’m doing is wrong. And there is a time for truth, and there’s certainly a time to deliver that truth with a great deal of compassion and love. That’s what Abby Johnson found.
Sam Rohrer: Jeff, let’s just go to an example. We’ve already been talking about the personality, the approach of Christ himself. The lawgiver, the embodiment of truth. At the same time, he came as a manifestation of God’s love for people who are broken, which includes all of us, and said I have a way that you can be restored. But Jesus himself, and you may think of a couple of examples, but just take us one if you don’t mind. Perhaps where Christ approached someone who was a broken person, someone in great need. Dealt with the truth, but also dealt with the way back.
Jeff Coleman: Yeah well Scripture is filled with all of those examples. You know, the woman at the well. The words that too though, I was at Tenth Presbyterian Church two Sundays ago in Philadelphia, and a visiting pastor from Northern Scotland said, “Look,” he said, “You don’t know what it’s like for me to leave, to have left the schemes or the projects of Northern Scotland. But when you do this, you give up everything, because they think you’ve gone posh. They think you’ve gone respectable. They think that you’ve gone to the dark side. And you lose your family, you lose your connections. You Americans, you know what you think is a bad day? You know what you think is persecution?” He says, “Getting a bad tweet. Getting a bad blog. Having someone say something unkind or maybe unfriending you on Facebook. That’s not persecution. That’s a little pinprick.”
I think there are persecuted Christians around the world who are looking at us saying come on Americans, toughen up a little bit. You can deal with a lot more and you can do it with grace and love. Look at the church in Bangladesh. Look at the church in China. Look at the church in Egypt. Look at the church in just about every other sector of the world, where they are risking their lives to attend a formal worship service on a Sunday morning. And we’re still driving to church, checking our kids in. Our biggest concern is whether or not we can find the nursery, or a good parking spot, or if the coffee at the church is good. We just… we’re starting to get exposed a little bit to what it might be like to have the culture disagree with us. But we have a long way to go till we understand what it really means to be persecuted. And I just say my concern is for me and for my children. Our family.
Are we going to buckle under that pressure and start fighting back the same way that the world does? Or are we going to say, “Bring it on, because what you’re going to get from us is love and forgiveness and grace and compassion.” And we’ll give you the truth, but we’re going to do it in such a gracious way, that when the Holy Spirit is stirring in your hearts, you’re going to find the grace and compassion that you need for your life. That’s the moment that we’re at, and civility is kind of the end of all of it. When our manners break down we just say forget the manners, we’re just going in with guns a blazing. You know, forget the politeness, we’re going to throw a punch. And that’s when we lose our witness in the public square.
Isaac Crockett: That is so helpful and so interesting. I know Sam you get a lot of feedback from pastors all over the world, not just in America, who are facing persecution. I know I’ve met with many pastors in other countries who were persecuted. I’m thinking right now of, he was a young pastor when I knew him, and he had actually been a persecutor of Christians in a Communist country and he changed, and he himself then became imprisoned, and was given the job of breaking rocks with a sledge hammer because he converted. But he converted because the kindness and the love that those he was persecuting showed him. And so we here in America we’re not facing the kind of persecution our brothers and sisters are for the most part, but we need to be prepared for how we’re going to answer, and what we’re going to say, what we’re going to do.
Thanks again for listening. We’ve been discussing this topic of how do we respond with the truth, with our convictions, with our knowledge of the Bible through a Biblical worldview, how do we respond with Godly actions to ungodly and unfair treatment by the people of this world? And so our special guest with us today is former State Representative the Honorable Jeff Coleman. He’s the founder of Churchill Media, and the author of… we were talking about his book a little bit ago… but the author of a book about civility called, With All Due Respect.
And Jeff has studied a lot, has experienced a lot of what it is in our political system about civility, or the lack thereof. And so Jeff, as we come to this, our final segment here, what are maybe some solutions or some advice that you would give to listeners? Maybe there’s somebody out there, maybe a college student who’s being mocked or harassed by a professor for his or her Biblical views on all sorts of things. Or maybe it’s somebody who has a family member, maybe even a spouse, who disagrees with their Biblical worldview. Maybe co-workers or government officials even, confronting somebody. What kind of advice would you have for that listener as we kind of wrap things up?
Jeff Coleman: Well I think that’s a great question, and probably the first place that I would start is to get to know the story of the person on the other side. People attacking you don’t attack in a vacuum, they’re attacking you as the example of something. You’re the proxy, you’re the stand-in, you’re not really the object generally of their attack. So to know where people come from, know where they’ve been. That isn’t a cop out, that is being genuinely interested. Believing that someone is created in the image of God, and to know that their story is the journey that we hope will lead them away from anger, away from the constant disappointment that comes when you put yourself at the center of the story. The second thing is, I think you’ve got to look at your opponents and say, “Hey, anyway we could grab to bite to eat? Could we grab coffee? Is there any chance you’d be willing to listen to me?”
And I’ve seen this happen again and again and again, where people who are just impossible to imagine becoming friends, develop a relationship over a beverage like coffee. It’s amazing what God can do through that. And then finally I think, here’s a piece of advice that I need to take more of myself, stay out of social media until you have something to say. If you are scrolling on social media, and your heart is already kind of unsettled, you’re going to find something that offends you, and you’re going to want to block them or unfriend them, or tweet back, or reply back a response that may not be the response that you should be giving. This whole idea that people are deserving respect isn’t an idea of Emily Post. It’s not just etiquette and manners and good breeding.
I hear people say, “Well they don’t deserve respect.” And that flies in the face of the whole idea of what Jesus has done for us, which is pretty remarkable if you think about it and you know our stories. Our story of grace and redemption. He loved us in our sin. We should be able by his power to do the same. That changes everything. I think doing that with opponents, not looking at them as a target or an object, even to convert to Christianity, to convert to your faith, but just to love as Jesus would love. That’s the objective that we have.
Isaac Crockett: That’s very good advice. As I think back on some of the difficult situations I’ve been in with people, either because of their religious or their secular beliefs that differed from mine, and really some confrontations with a chance for a really bad situation. I think of the times by God’s grace that he was able to take that awkward situation and turn it around so that we could have friendships, and even on multiple occasions, see those people come to know Christ. It’s definitely not something of my own doing, and I totally agree with the social media thing too.
Sometimes I’ll be scrolling through different feeds and I find an anger. We talk about being outraged, but I find just a rage within me coming out that is not healthy for me spiritually or even physically probably. And so sometimes it is good to stay away until we’re ready for it. Sam, as we close this time out, I’d like to have you close our program in prayer, but do you have any lessons maybe that you have seen or learned, or anything you could kind of add to Jeff there, what he has said? Stuff that we can take away from this discussion before you close in prayer?
Sam Rohrer: I do, and I tell you Jeff, and all of us probably, could just share like we’re doing, an entire program, because there are so many practical things. One of the things that was coming to my mind when Jeff was talking was this. It’s not about us, it’s about a person. So if we’re attacked by someone who does not like the truth, or does not like us talking about, or even quoting the verse of what Christ said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes unto the Father but by me.” That’s a powerful truth. That’s a salient truth. Well, that can be hard. Well, all right. Well, is it about us? No, it’s about a person. So I think in that regard, that helps to keep things from becoming personal and many times when people say we can get angered, and I’ve often caught myself thinking in terms of this when those kinds of things come, again it’s not us, it’s a person.
And therefore don’t take it personally. Don’t react. Thoughtfully respond. And that’s where we pray for wisdom and discernment and how to handle truth and how to respond to the person that we’re talking with. Christ did that very clearly. As Jeff said, the example of the woman at the well, or speaking to the crowds with people at large, or bringing the person who came before him was blind and he healed. But people said but hey isn’t this person blind because he sinned? And Christ said no, no, no, no. He responded in all of those circumstances thoughtfully, and it was a response not a reaction. Just a couple little things that come to my mind, Isaac, when I think about articulating the truth.
And I guess the other would be that we have to know the truth. If we don’t know the truth of what God’s word says, then all we’re doing is expressing an opinion. Really know the truth. Know the giver of the truth, that person, and it puts up in the best position then to be able to consider how Christ would in fact respond in a given circumstance. And of course the Scripture’s full of those kinds of illustrations and we do well when we study that, and try to mirror those kinds of things.