This transcript is taken from the Stand in the Gap Today radio program originally aired on 2/12/20. To listen to the program, please click HERE.
Sam Rohrer: Well as of this morning, we know that in the nation’s first official presidential primary, the Democrat party field is shrinking. Socialist Bernie Sanders currently tops the field with Mayor Pete a close second. Joe Biden actually fled New Hampshire for South Carolina, is likely on his way out. Elizabeth Warren scores poorly, but insists that she’s just getting started, ready for the long haul. Then the lesser known Andrew Yang surrenders completely bows out. The result is that the Democrat’s whole party’s in disarray. They’re scrounging around for someone other than Bernie to lead and in the end offers really not a whole lot of hope and that’s what the Democrats themselves are saying.
Sam Rohrer: In my opinion, the next months are going to change the situation a whole lot. Yet I will say that in the last days, the last few days, one thing has crystallized even further and that is the wholesale support of the Democrat presidential candidates trying their hardest to make their greatest distinction between themselves and the Democrat party and the matter of life. Donald Trump is for life, so the Democrats must be for death. In fact, Bernie Sanders made the clarion statement a few days ago that supporting abortions up to birth is in his words, “An essential part of being a Democrat.” And in effect telling remaining pro life Democrats that there just simply wasn’t room in the Democrat party for them. Well, not to be outdone, Joe Biden, Elizabeth Warren and the others all agreed that federal law to protect the right, believe this, the right to murder a pre-born child up to the day of birth is something that they could all support.
Sam Rohrer: I mean, literally ladies and gentlemen, can you imagine such a race to the essential foundational principles of atheistic, Marxism and anti-God Atheism would be so stark? It’s right there though, it’s right there. And whereas we’ve known that certain organizations like Planned Parenthood have always targeted others of lesser value in their atheistic worldview, targeting them for elimination through abortion and other things. This move by the entirety of the Democrat party to me is astounding. And I hope that this crystallizing of fundamental positions alarms you and that it angers you and that it motivates you to support and to defend life. And we’ve been spending time on this issue and in a multiple ways over the last week and we will in the future because it is so important.
Sam Rohrer: But today I’m not going to talk anymore about the election, but we are going to talk with one individual, having been involved in the finance and accounting worlds for a long time and also a Christian. He was angered by what he saw as the Christian business man and others and Christians generally being forced to invest in companies who actually were part of the abortion death culture. And he decided to try and make a difference. And he has indeed with God’s blessing done just that.
Sam Rohrer: His name is Art Ally, he is the founder and president of Timothy Plan, a now $1 billion mutual fund that screens out abortion companies and other companies who invest and participate in unbiblical anti-family activities. And we’re going to talk with him today in just a moment. Our theme for the day is this, another way to oppose abortion and to support life. And you’ll see what we mean by that in just a minute. With that, I welcome you to the program, I’m Sam Rohrer, accompanied today by Pastor Joe Green of St. Johns Missionary Baptist church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. And with that, I want to welcome right now to the program Art Ally. Art, thank you for being with us.
Art Ally: Oh Sam, it is my honor to be with you, sir. Thank you for the good work you’re doing up there.
Sam Rohrer: Well we appreciate all that you have done as well and it’s a real pleasure to have you on. I want to get right into it, Art. People need to hear your story and how things began. About 25 years ago, God directed you to establish what is now known as the Timothy Plan and praise the Lord, it’s grown to over $1 billion of invested funds by people who wanted to make sure that their investments were not supporting the abortion industry. And that issue there I think was a trigger in your mind, can you share just a minute or two about the circumstances or the factors that motivated you to do something, to offer people a choice of where they invested their retirement and investment accounts? How’d that happen?
Art Ally: Sure, I’d be glad to Sam. I’ve been in the investment business for 40 years now, over 40 years. And I was having a very nice practice and dealing with Christian business people and lining up their finances and their business plans and all the rest. And in the investment business, it started occurring to me increasingly that I was helping my Christian clients invest in companies that were operating absolutely contrary to their value system and worldview. And you said it well in pro-life pro family. I’ve been battling abortion ever since I saw a movie, Silent Scream, and came to grips with what abortion really was. But here I am helping people invest in companies that are funding that stuff.
Art Ally: So it was time to draw a line in the sand. And Bonnie agreed and so we left. We took two years of R&D and Sam, what that means, I learned. R&D means all outgo and no income, but it took two years to put this together and our commitment was to have the highest possible quality mutual fund investment program in the industry that would prove to the world you do not have to own companies that are funding, for lack of a better term, an unholy agenda that certainly includes abortion, but a whole lot more than that as well.
Art Ally: So yeah, we kicked it off 25 years ago. My friends on Wall Street told me, “You can’t do that.” And I said, “What do you mean?” They said, “You cannot screen out investing in the biggest, most profitable companies in the industry and expect to get good investment returns.” Well, my response to them then is the same as my responses to anybody who asked me today, if you are a Bible believing Christian, obedience trumps performance every single time. And that doesn’t mean we don’t get good performance, we do. We’ve proven that you can get competitive performance. You just don’t have to own companies, and when you own their stock you’re a part owner of that company, and why would you align yourself with somebody like that? So we do provide the alternative for people and we’ve proven over 25 years you just do not have to own companies that are operating contrary to your biblical world view.
Sam Rohrer: Absolutely Art, and we only have this a couple of minutes before, but you’ve actually written a book where you’re talking about your transition and doing what you’re doing. What’s the name of that book and where can people find it real quickly?
Art Ally: Well, actually I guess it’s on Amazon now and we’ve got the ebook coming up very shortly, but people beat up on me for five, six, seven years to write a book. And I don’t write, I mean I just put them off, put them off, put them off and then it finally occurred to me…
Sam Rohrer: And with that, I’m going to go ahead here right now we’re going into a break, the name of that book is Invested With Purpose: The Birth Of Biblically Responsible Investing Movement. Quite good, take a look at it.
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Sam Rohrer: Well, welcome back to Stand in the Gap Today, I’m Sam Rohrer accompanied today by pastor Joe Green and our special guest Art Ally. Our theme today is another way to oppose abortion and support life. Art Ally is the founder and the president of Timothy Plan with a website at timothyplan.com. Throughout scripture, God links his blessings, his blessings on individuals, on families and nations. He links it to obedience, to the guidelines that he laid out for individuals and families and nations and all frankly, of life and living. And we find those guidelines in the Bible. We also know that choices have consequences. Good choices produce good consequences. Bad choices produce bad consequences, but every person has to choose. Joshua and the Old Testament, for instance, for his household, he did. He said, “As for me and my house, I don’t care what you do, but for me and my household we’re going to serve the Lord.”
Sam Rohrer: God told all of the fathers and the entire nation of Israel in Deuteronomy 30 going into the land that if they wanted freedom, security from the enemy, health, sufficient rain to grow their crops, if they wanted an increase in wealth, that all of those things would happen if they chose to obey God’s commands as he laid out for individuals and families and nations. But he also said the opposite was true. He said, “If you choose and do what I say, you will choose life and live, but if you don’t, then you will choose death and you will be judged.” And unfortunately, we know the history of the Old Testament Israelites, that they effectively chose their own way and they chose death, but that’s what’s been happening in our country and the consequences are not good.
Sam Rohrer: Art, I want to go back to you here right now, in your emphasis on following biblical principles, which you did, and you put that into your book and you talk about biblically responsible investing, biblically consistent financial decisions, something that we talk about a great deal on this program. Can you share an example or two maybe that come to your mind Art, how you’ve seen God, perhaps bless others, somebody else who you’ve come aware of who decided that they needed to take their investments and put it into, for instance, Timothy Plan with you, so that they were not supporting bad industries including the abortion industry and others. An example come to mind?
Art Ally: Well, I mean there are a myriad and we are the product, we are the mutual fund, so I don’t talk to shareholders anymore as much as I used to, but I can’t think of another mutual fund whose shareholders and clients call them just to say, “Thank you, thank you for being there.”
Art Ally: But it’s not always a road of peaches and cream, you obey the Lord and for some reason maybe it’s just me, he jams you through key holes for lack of a better term. And that happened to us on four occasions where we just ran out of money, but he always stepped in at the 11th hour and provided, I can take no credit for any of that. And it finally hit me, we can trust him, the problem is he’s got to know he can trust us and you don’t do that without going through the fire, my friend. And so we have been, I wouldn’t want to do it again, but I wouldn’t trade it for anything in the world. But yeah, our shareholders are just so grateful that they can feel good about how they’re investing and our money managers feel the same way.
Joe Green: Art, for the sake of comparison, the Timothy Plan, which you state it now exceeds $1 billion in investment. That’s phenomenal, it absolutely is. Yet, how does that compare to the US total investments and the potential investments controlled by those who proclaim to be Christians? Have we come a long way? And how far have we yet to go?
Art Ally: That’s a great question, Joe. And in the beginning when we launched this thing, I mean it was a long, hard path because nobody was thinking in these terms. They’ve all been trained at handling money by the world and when you invest it’s all about returns, not about what you own. But over 25 years, that has come a long way where people are now starting to think like that. But even so we are barely scratching the surface of the… I don’t know, I guess about $13 trillion mutual fund industry, it is shocking to know that over 60% of the investors that invest in mutual funds claimed to be born again, evangelical Christians. And that-
Sam Rohrer: Say that again, say that again, Art.
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Art Ally: Over 60% of all the money invested in the mutual fund industry and in the stock market as a whole is invested by people who claim to be born again Christians. And if they would simply follow the dictates as you well laid out in scripture and quit aligning with people that are pursuing an unholy agenda and pull their money out and put it in places, and I’m not just saying Timothy because others have entered this fray since we launched. But if they would do that, America would change over night because it is always about the money. And I believe that’s the problem that Democrats have, they’re bought and paid for by the abortion industry and they’re not about to cut off that flow of funds and what a horrible way to go through life. So yeah, people are finally waking up, but nowhere near enough.
Sam Rohrer: Let’s talk about this a little bit. It’s been 25 years since the Lord led you to start Timothy Fund and you said that was a struggle, that God has now done something very significant. And there are other funds out there now and I would say, maybe you can say this, but I can say it, I know that they’re in that space of trying to provide clean funds and not investing in these evil activities because they saw what you were doing. So for that I am really, really thank you, Art. God has just magnified what he led you to do.
Sam Rohrer: But the question is how have you seen the influence of Timothy Funds, and maybe you already said a little bit of it, but how have you seen the rise of Timothy funds and these others that are now following your lead, where funds are being created, where people can invest, where they’re not participating in abortion and other evil activities. How has that contributed to perhaps more people becoming aware of the necessity of supporting life and opposing abortion? Have you seen, other than the movement of funds, have you seen the movement of these funds influence policy or culture because people now have a choice of where they can invest their money.
Art Ally: Unfortunately just fractionally, but there are others who have entered this arena. The only concern I have is they’re doing it for marketing reasons, maybe more so than for conviction. And when that happens, you start to compromise here and compromise there and that’s the story of Christianity unfortunately. But there are a couple of good ones out there and the more the merrier. I just wish all of them would be genuine. I’m not sure anybody has the convictions we have and we’re not going to change no matter what because I am not the chairman of the board, Jesus Christ is, and we’re not going to dishonor him.
Art Ally: But yes, it’s having a bit of an impact. But when you think of all the people that own all of these investments and they’re doing it oblivious to the fact, in too many cases, of what they’re really investing in, because investment is kind of a mystery to everybody. But my friend Kevin Freeman, and you know him when he addressed our board of trustees one time, he made a profound a statement and it was simply this because he’s a big advocate of what we do. He said, “Unless you are carefully screening out where you’re investing the funds God has entrusted to you, you could inadvertently be funding your own destruction.” And I said, “Wow, I never even thought of that.” But it’s true.
Joe Green: Art, getting back to the consequences of good and bad decisions. How has the rise of the Timothy Funds and other groups out there now, which offer investments that don’t promote evil industries like abortion, impacted the abortion industry and perhaps contributed to the promotion of life awareness, is the trend looking good or disappointing as it relates to the culture generally, and younger people and Christians specifically?
Art Ally: Well, the trend is absolutely looking good but we sure have a long way to go. But the longest journey starts with the first step. So it is encouraging to see more and more people become more and more aware. And once this spreads more rapidly, we could possibly see things change in America because it is always about the money.
Art Ally: And the companies we screen out guys, normally we screen them out for reasons that have nothing to do with the business they’re in. If you’re in the hamburger business, sell hamburgers, don’t be funding some evil agenda, why are you doing that kind of stuff? And it’s generally because they cave into pressure from groups that put the pressure on them. Well, the Christian community, we’re nice and we’re not going to offend anybody and nor should we but we’re at a disadvantage because the other people are mean and vicious and we’re loving and nice so these companies cave in, to the mean and vicious. And one very recent one that broke my heart was Chick-fil-A.
Sam Rohrer: Yes indeed. I’m going to have to cut right there, absolutely. Ladies and gentlemen, Timothy Plan timothyplan.com is where you can invest, where you can be assured that your funds are not going to support human trafficking, pornography, or other anti-family efforts for sure
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Sam Rohrer: Welcome back to Stand in the Gap and we are the midpoint in this Stand in the Gap Today program and I said stand in the gap because you may not know this but we have three radio programs, Stand in the Gap Today, this one every day for an hour, Stand in the Gap Weekend, which is a program from the week that is chosen based on certain factors and kind of repackaged and then played on other stations across the country on the weekend. Then we have a Stand in the Gap Minute program that you will often hear it included within this program and that’s on about 700 stations across the country, that one minute program. And then we have Stand in the Gap TV.
Sam Rohrer: So if you are not aware of that all of those exist, I’d encourage you to look for them. Not all radio stations carry all of them, but you can find them all on our website at standinthegapradio.com and you can find them all conveniently at your fingertips, if you have an iPhone by downloading our free app. And then you can search by topic, you can pull everything on all three of the radio programs and the TV program right before you and search all of the podcasts, a very, very convenient thing.
Sam Rohrer: And you can also there sign up for our 52 Tuesday Prayer Initiative where we’re trying to gain the support of 10,000 prayer warriors for this nation, being reminded every Tuesday as it comes around between now and November of this year to pray for our country, to pray for our leaders as the Bible says, to do and to most importantly to pray for yourselves and when you look in the mirror in the morning and say, “How I walking in my relationship to the Lord?” Because we know God answers the prayer of those who are walking obediently, but God does not even hear the prayer of those who carry iniquity in their heart as Psalm 66 says, so it’s very important that we have people who are right with God, who are then praying before him. All of those things you can do. I encourage you to do that.
Sam Rohrer: I want to go back right now with our special guest Art Ally, our nation as a nation, here, the United States, we’d know, we were once built clearly on biblical principles. There was an unequivocal public dependency on the Judeo-Christian worldview of government, and life and living. And our American culture though began to move away from that into the supporting of abortion, the redefining of marriage by the course and more. And now we have Democrat presidential candidates officially calling for nationwide laws that permit the murder of pre-born children up to the day of birth. Yeah, that’s right. So our nation is clearly choosing, we’re talking about choice, choices and consequences, we’re choosing the position of death as God told Israel that had better not do.
Sam Rohrer: Well in this segment we’re going to talk further with Art Ally. He’s the president and founder of Timothy Plan, that specializes in putting together mutual funds of which they have over $1 billion in investment to help people, all of us make sure that what we’re investing in is not supporting those activities that God says, “If you’re involved in them as a nation, I will punish you.” We don’t want that, we want to be blessed, do we not ladies and gentlemen? So Art, let me go to you. Timothy plan mutual funds and other funds were created to help, I would say God fearing people to not support evil industries. From your experience in what you do, what would be the top three or four other industries for example, in addition to abortion, which are screened out by your process and how big are they? How pervasive are… So start with abortion and take the next three. How big of an industry is that? What does that represent, and has given us an idea of what, when you or somebody invests in Timothy plan funds, they are not involved in those things.
Art Ally: Well, we have our extensive screens and we have a team of five people full time that do nothing but research what these companies are doing. So abortion is where we started. Pornography follows very closely behind and it is one of the scourges on our culture, it is very addictive and leads into a lot of very, very bad stuff. We screen out anti-family entertainment, we screen out non-traditional married lifestyles, whether it’s homosexual or heterosexual. The Bible is very clear on those issues.
Art Ally: But Sam, I’ve got to tell you, it all boils down to what I said earlier. It’s always about the money and people just do not understand, unfortunately how to biblically handled their money because the church has done a really poor job on educating its members on what the Bible says about money. It says more about money than any other subject, God knew where we’d get into trouble. And just think about it, where do you get into trouble? What is more central to your life than money? Whether you’re a Christian or a non-Christian, and if you’re handling it the way the world handles it, it is no wonder we’re in a mess.
Art Ally: So I’m saying that to just make one recommendation. I finally got fed up with this and I wrote a biblical stewardship study guide that is a resource, it’s on our website. It’s free for the people who want to go through it. It’s nine hours long, but it is real easy to go through and it puts things in perspective of how to handle money, not just on your investment, but how you spend it, what you’re doing with it, how you’re preparing it. It is thorough and we’re trying to equip the body of Christ with tools that will help them know what’s going on.
Art Ally: And another quick tool, if I got just a second?
Sam Rohrer: Sure.
Art Ally: Is called the evaluator. Any of your listeners, they don’t know what these companies are doing. If they call us, we will give them a free report, if they tell us where their investments are. Are they involved in abortion, are they involved in pornography or any of these other screens. And it’s a free service we give to people and all they have to do is call us.
Joe Green: Art, in your opinion, what have been the largest contributors to people wanting to invest in clean, biblically responsible investments and follow Bible-based financial stewardship principles? And what have been the greatest hindrances in your estimation?
Art Ally: Well, the greatest hindrance I think I just went over, we are not trained on what God’s word says on handling money. The world trains us on how to handle money and it’s just exactly the opposite. So these things are not quite as important, that’s the big hindrance. The big benefit is people are starting to wake up, “My life’s in a mess. I’m not doing this thing right. I’m trying to get serious about serving the Lord.” And 2 Corinthians 6:17 kind of says it all where God says, “Come out from among them and be separate,” says the Lord. “Do not touch what is unclean and I will receive you.” People are waking up to that guys. But I wish it was quicker but it is what it is. We didn’t get in this mess overnight and we’re probably not going to get out of it overnight, but we’re at least getting a start.
Sam Rohrer: Yes we are Art and this program and what we are trying to do and other ministries that you are trying to facilitate are things that I think God is doing to help lay out the truth. And we know, ladies and gentlemen, that the truth empowers, does it not? And we live in a deceptive world, we’ve talked about that a lot on this program. Deception is the mark of the end of the age, as we are in that time. And deception, the only thing that clears that out is the truth of God’s word and proclaiming it, so living it, proclaiming it.
Sam Rohrer: Art, I want to change gears here just briefly. You are in the space of finances. You’ve been there for your whole life. We’re talking about consequences, choices, and consequences. I want to ask you your thought on this, the Bible warns individuals and families and nations about going into debt. That’s one of the biggest problems I think exists in the country. Today’s headlines, an example, US household debt now exceeds $14 trillion, household debt for the first time ever. Credit card crazy is another headline. Increase a $46 billion last quarter alone now over 5% of credit card holders over 90 days or more behind. Art, the debt situation to our country, how serious and how long is it going to be [inaudible 00:28:17] we actually pay the piper? It’s seems like it’s getting closer.
Art Ally: Yeah, America could crumble morally and it certainly is in a sewer there, but the indebtedness is what will bring the nation down. It’s over $22 trillion of federal debt now and people have no clue of how big a number that is, so I like to try to make it real for them and it’s simply this. Think about it, if you had a machine that printed $1 every second, 60 seconds a minute, 60 minutes an hour, 24 hours a day, 365 days, nonstop, a dollar, how long would it take to print $1 trillion?
Sam Rohrer: Tell us.
Art Ally: You’re not going to believe it, 36,710 years.
Sam Rohrer: 36,000-
Art Ally: It is a big number, we don’t comprehend it.
Sam Rohrer: No, we don’t comprehend it Art, ladies and gentlemen, that is the magnitude of the problem. Art, we’re done. Your website again, timothyplan.com and people can go there and find how to handle money. They can also find out and get a free report you say on their investments that they may be involved in, all of that’s correct, right?
Art Ally: [inaudible 00:29:37].
Sam Rohrer: Fantastic, Art Ally, thanks for being with us today. Art’s the president and the founder of Timothy Plan, timothyplan.com. He’s done such a great work and God has done a magnificent thing with helping to inform people. And of course, we talk about biblically responsible investing on this program a lot, when it was Art that really had more to do with bringing that into being than anybody, so I want to thank you to Art.
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Sam Rohrer: So, welcome back to our program and we’re now in our final segment. We started the program and we’re going to conclude it talking about where we’re going as a nation. And we focused today a life theme ran through it, abortion theme because where the leading Democrat presidential candidates have taken this debate where they’re so embracing it that they’re actually saying, if you are not pro-life Democrats, this party is not for you anymore. It’s an incredible thing. And there are costs to this nation that the abortion industry and supporting that have created. And so when you have candidates that are pursuing it even more from a biblical sense, you are actually having people say, “God bring on judgment.” When you support death, you’re saying God bring on judgment. It’s a credible time in which we are living.
Sam Rohrer: Art Ally, our special guest with the Timothy Plan was led of God to say, “As Christians, we just can’t be supporting this type of thing.” And he made it clear, our money is something that’s very, very, very important and it says a lot about who we are, does it not? What we spend, do we spend more than we have? Upon what do we spend? It all tells us, tells anybody who looks a lot about us and so that’s why he created funds that can assure all of us that when we put our monies in there for retirement or other purposes, we’re not supporting the very things that are destroying our culture.
Sam Rohrer: When I look at the nation, I see evidences of God’s blessing and I think anyone who honestly does, they would see that as well. In my opinion, they are unarguable from an historical and otherwise perspective. They are denied by many to be sure, but you still can’t argue them. It’s like saying that God doesn’t exist and a lot of people say he doesn’t exist, but you really can’t argue the fact that the evidence of God is very, very clear. Consequences of choices, bad choices give bad consequences and so forth and… As that’s been for abortion, the redefining of marriage, the throwing prayer and the 10 commandments out of the schools, all of that are part of those things that create consequences.
Sam Rohrer: Joe, before you and I go to prayer, I just like to get your thoughts about this. When you view our overall culture, you are a pastor, you are a pastor in an inner city location, you see a lot of things. Can you point to some specific consequences that have come to bear perhaps on certain portions of our culture because of the abortion laws as an example or the redefining of marriage perhaps, whatever. Mention a few of those things perhaps that can help our listeners to really get a more personal grip on the cost that this is putting upon us.
Joe Green: Absolutely. And as you stated, being in the inner city and being someone who really works closely with the African American culture, I can see how the propaganda machine of the mainstream media and arts and entertainment has been really clever at promoting and socially engineering of African American culture to embrace the culture of destruction, in many aspects. I’m saying popular culture, not every part of the culture, whether it’s abortion, the redefinition of marriage or sex and gender roles and all those things, which is a clear breakdown of the family. And we know historically anytime you break down the natural family, the biblical family, there are long term consequences that come as a result of that. So you have mass incarceration, you have poor schools, violence, drugs and all those things that circulate around communities and environments where there’s a breakdown of the family and more specifically a lack of fathers in the family. It’s a biblical principle, we see it in the natural.
Joe Green: And one of the things I just want to piggyback off of, and we talked about this briefly, Sam, is that when you look at abortion, which is based on racism, Charles Darwin’s the Origin of the Species Through Natural Selection is based on race theory. The subtitle is, the Preservation of the Favored Races in the Quest For Life, we know that. Margaret Sanger took that mantle and she created Planned Parenthood as a way to reduce and control the population of certain people and specifically the African American community.
Joe Green: But if you don’t even look at it from a cultural, from a social and a spiritual standpoint, but just look at it from an economic standpoint, in America now because of the targeting and the propaganda of planned Parenthood, African-Americans represent a third of all abortions that have been performed in the country even just since Roe vs Wade in 1973. In New York City and many other areas that have large concentrations of Black people, there are more Black babies being aborted than born. And what does that mean economically? It’s a hindrance to any culture when you are not even replacing yourself. We’re not even replacing ourselves in population. We’re sliding down the scale, we used to be the number two group, now we’re down to about three or four, which means economically our communities are going to suffer, our families are going to suffer because as the population gets older, we don’t have the younger demographic that are there to help, to provide, and to take care of and to continue the culture as it should be continued.
Joe Green: And so you see all of these trickle down effects from a turning away from the sound biblical principles of sound family, husband and wife being married and raising their children. Because we know that an economists would tell you that one of the ways to maintain middle-class or even to go to upper-class and get out of poverty is by getting married, having all your children with your spouse and continuing your education and being financially sound with your money. And so all these things are things that are… The Black community is one of the only communities that since the year 2000 has regressed economically while, White, Hispanic, and Asian communities and even African communities have actually began to increase in their economics and even their population.
Sam Rohrer: And Joe [inaudible 00:36:04] we’re out of time. We need to talk more about this and we have with you in the past.
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