This transcript is taken from a Stand in the Gap Today radio program originally aired 4/14/20. To listen to the program, please click HERE.
Gary Dull: Well, hello ladies and gentlemen and welcome to Stand in the Gap Today. I’m Gary Dull, and along with me is Dr. David Kistler and the honorable Sam Rohrer. The full team is with us today and I’m very thankful for that. In a moment I’m going to introduce to you a very special guest who has some vital information to share with us about churches receiving funds from the government during the COVID-19 crisis. Have you heard about that? Well, you’re going to hear about it today as we discuss it with Dr. Jim Garlow. I think that the program today will be very appropriate for pastors and church leaders as well as others. But Dr. Jim Garlow is the former senior pastor of the Skyline Church in San Diego, California. He’s also the founder and CEO of Well Versed Ministries, that has the mission of bringing biblical principles of governance to the nation with a major focus on presenting biblical truth to those in government.
Gary Dull: I’ll tell you, ladies and gentlemen, that is a real need today. If you keep up on the news at all, there’s no doubt that over the years you may have seen Jim on television or heard him on the radio or maybe you’ve read some of his books or some of his printed articles in national Christian magazines. It is with great honor that we have Jim with us today on Stand in the Gap. Dr Jim Garlow, welcome to the program, my friend.
Jim Garlow: Thank you, I enjoy to be on with you.
Gary Dull: It’s a delight to have you with us and you’ve been a great leader down through the years and I think that everybody across the nation, or at least most of the people across the nation, thank the Lord for you, I know we do here at Stand in the Gap. But folks, before we get involved in the discussion of the church in the face of crisis, which is our theme today, I want us to briefly discuss some of the expanded ministry that each of us may have become aware of that’s being conducted by churches and other ministries these days as the result of COVID-19. So Sam and Dave and even Jim, if you don’t mind, I would like to have you share with our folks about some of the things that you’ve observed churches doing as it relates to extra ministries for their congregation and community during these days of crisis.
Gary Dull: I’m doing this for a twofold purpose, number one, so that we can all see the church at work across the nation in times like these, as well as maybe give some other churches some ideas. I know at our church here in Altoona, Pennsylvania, we put together originally about 22 extra things that we were going to do to minister during these days. I think it’s up to about 26 or 27 now because the needs continue to grow. But Sam, let’s go to you first, what have you seen taking place in and through churches to minister during this COVID-19 period?
Sam Rohrer: Gary, I’ll just mention two, I think a whole lot more than that. But I’ve seen a frequency of communication from the pastors and/or pastor staff to people in the congregation. I actually think they’re hearing more from those leaders during this time than they were before. I think that’s a good thing. I have seen some, our own church for instance, has been doing things even with the kids, doing the kids’ lessons in video and having them all together and teaching the lessons to the children. That has been a well-received thing. Then I’ll say one other is that I’ve seen an expanded use of small groups by Zoom, as an example, that’s where a lot of people are going, and even pulling in, attracting those who haven’t come to church, but because they have time, they’ve been joining in with some of these small groups and becoming a part and it’s been a means of outreach. I’ll just mention those three, but there are significant.
Gary Dull: Thank you Sam, and I appreciate that. Dave, you have connections all across the country and even around the world, what have you observed that churches have been doing? I know that you’re involved with something almost every night in your neck of the woods, are you not?
Dave Kistler: You know Gary, we are. It’s called a drive-in revival, where people just pulled to a common location, a large parking lot, and they tune in via an FM transmitter. There’s also a sound system in case the transmitter goes on the blink or there’s any particular technological challenges depending on weather and so on. There’s a lot of that going on. In fact, one of my dear pastor friends in the Champaign, Illinois area preached this past Sunday, Easter Sunday, from the roof of the building and they had about three times as many people attend the service in their cars than normally attends the services regularly. There’s a lot of creativity being seen. And then there are others that are reaching out into their community with first responders, with medical personnel and providing meals that they deliver actually already packaged up so they don’t have to be handled in any way that something could be transmitted. But those are delivered to first responders.
Dave Kistler: And then something really unique, and I’ll say this Gary and then I’ll turn it back over to you. But our dear friend Keith Davidson has procured permission from the local Walmart to actually set up a table out in front of the Walmart, and this will, of course, be determined about what state you’re in and what the restrictions are, but in Indiana they’re able to do this and they just have that they’re offering to pray for anyone that wants to come by, practicing social distancing, leave a prayer requests with them, and they will pray for those items and just providing that service for the community. So a lot of very creative things going on.
Gary Dull: Amen. No doubt about that. Jim Garlow, what have you seen taking place through churches in these last days?
Jim Garlow: Well, all of the above, what’s just been mentioned and this digital or electronic emphasis in churches is going to be very valuable to them after it’s over because they’ve learned how to have impact with far, far larger numbers of people. But also seeing informal worship times in addition to the worship service itself, just very informal worship times when people will take request electronically and just singing that particular worship song, then daily devotions that are provided electronically, videos as well, a lot more proactive phoning of members just to see how they’re doing. The food bank has already been mentioned, but the drive-in food banks, as well as drive-in worship services have been referenced already. But one thing, I’ve seen so much creativity, the only thing I have not really heard said, this surprised me a little bit, is I have not heard of any church stepping up to the plate with much more intensive training on how to pray for the sick. In other words, praying for healing because we’ve got a lot of sick people and so wouldn’t it be a natural for there to be a renewed emphasis upon how to, at least over the phone, pray with people and train and equip people how to pray for the sick? That’s the only one thing lacking. Everything else has been a highly creative and I have nothing but compliments how pastors have adapted to this environment.
Gary Dull: You know Jim, that’s a very excellent idea. I’ve not even thought of it either. Like I said, we’re doing about 26 or 27 different things through our church. But that’s very practical and something that people need and something that ultimately would truly bring honor and glory to the Lord. So pastors out there, think about that. One of the reasons why we’ve taken time to share what other churches are doing today is to give you some ideas. Maybe one of you pastors might want to take that particular ball and roll with it, praying for the sick. That’s truly needed today.
Gary Dull: Should local churches receive funds from the government to compensate for losses due to the COVID-19 virus? That’s quite a question and we’re going to be dealing with it today on Stand in the Gap, ladies and gentlemen, with our dear guest, Dr. Jim Garlow. Jim, before we actually delve into that subject, I recall you saying a number of years ago when I attended a conference where you were speaking, that when you hear of an issue that’s rising up in the nation or locally or around the world, whatever the case, that you immediately would begin to formulate in your mind what the Bible has to say about the issue and then address it, whether it was through your local church or through the media or whatever the case. With this as a backdrop, I’m wondering if you might just address our pastors across the nation for a moment and answer this question, why is it important for pastors to be up to date on what’s going on in the world around them and then address the various issues publicly? Why is that so significant for pastors today to do?
Jim Garlow: Well, first of all, it’s God who came up with the idea of government. Secondly, it’s God who establishes nations. Third, to the extent that a nation will follow biblical principles of civil governance, we can reduce human pain, suffering and poverty. Or the flip side of that, to the extent a nation violates principles of civil governance from scripture, we see an increase in human pain, suffering and poverty. George Barna is, of course, often quoted and he came up in 2013 with results of a survey which discovered 90% of pastors agree that the Bible speaks to political, social, cultural issues of the day. Now that’s good news, here’s the bad news. Further on in the survey when asked, “Have you or will you be speaking on what the Bible says about these cultures of civil and political issues of the day?” 90% said they would not. Two years after that Barna did another survey and he came up with the recognition that laypeople, people in the pew, there are 22 topics they wanted their pastor to tell them what the Bible has to say about these topics. At the conclusion of that they said, “We don’t speak out on the issues because we do not know what to say.”
Jim Garlow: And so as a result of that, that’s when I wrote my book Well Versed where we deal with what the Bible says about taxation, immigration, welfare, healthcare, minimum wage, social security, et cetera. Bottom line is God, he established government, he established nations. All truth for civil governance comes from him, comes from the word of God, so the Bible or the preachers or the churches of the nation, are to be the conscience of the state, to help the state how to think through. I’ve had the privilege of meeting with a number of heads of state and always, the small delegations as we meet, the goal was always to what? Bring biblical truth because what God says makes a difference.
Sam Rohrer: Jim, great information there in simple principles. Let’s go right into this issue that Gary set up here about funds coming from government here at this point. You’ve talked about, and we’ve talked about before, in most cases because of what you just cited as the research, because pastors don’t really know what ought to be said in regard to certain things, into that picture comes this time when funds have now been appropriated by government and made available to churches and now it’s a question of well… For many it’s the first time, it’s going through and saying, “Well, what are the biblical principles? What are the constitutional principles?” Where do you go right off on that in the response to churches seeking funds of any type, loan or grant, and there’s a distinction there, with the churches right now? Just take us into the first point here.
Jim Garlow: Well, first of all, there’s no biblical prohibition for a church receiving from the state. Now, should they or not? That’s a question, but there’s no biblical prohibition that says you cannot. In light of the fact that the government mandated the type of shutdown we are experiencing, shutdown being so thorough even in involving churches, then there is a certain legitimacy on those churches that desire to receive compensation for that. However, this is a big question, however, huge question, if there are any strings attached at all, the church should walk away in a heartbeat. Now in the current COVID-19 provisions, what’s called the PPP from the government, there do not appear to be any strings attached based upon the attorneys I’ve consulted regarding it. But if a church does accept funds, they need to see it as extremely temporary and they need to understand that God’s plan is tithing, is the faithful tithing of God’s people.
Jim Garlow: If they do receive them, they need to be very diligent to make sure the same government that supposedly gave them some of their own tax dollars back, tax dollars that is of the people who attend the churches, that they do not encroach on any of the freedoms, and need to be aware at the same time that there are some long term consequences of this program, and that is a vastly increased amount of dept on America. A church could receive them, a church is not prohibited from doing such, but they need to ask some very, very hard questions and being extremely alert, are there any conditions that could in the future control the message of the church? If that’s the case, they should walk away from it.
Dave Kistler: Brother Jim, that is an excellent point you just made, in fact several. But when you talked about God’s plan is tithing, boy, that was well said. I know in times past, any time the government has involved itself in something, even back as far as the Dust Bowl, the president at the time noted that the minute that government funding was introduced, that private donations and private funding for things begin to drop off because people begin to rely on the government for those funds. I think that’s what you’re saying with respect to this monies that are now being made available to the church. I’m curious, Brother Jim, if you know if any particular church or church group has reached out to the authorities, the president, the vice president and his team, to offer advice. In other words, where is this policy of the government offering churches financial relief? Where’s that actually coming from? Whose idea was this?
Jim Garlow: Well, I’m not privy on that. I do not know. I do know this, that the president, President Trump, vigorously supports religious liberty to the extent like we have never seen of any modern president, fiercely committed. That’s one of the factors that causes one to feel a little bit more comfortable with this particular involvement. Because the president has sponsored… Under him, State Department had what’s called Ministerials, two of them annually, where the focus was on religious liberty. And then I happened to be at the United Nations on September the 22nd of 2019, when the president gave an unprecedented speech there at the United Nations. This was during what’s called general assembly, that means about 150 of the 193 member nations send their presence, their prime ministers, kings, princes, et cetera, to New York City. I was there and got to attend the session when the president spoke.
Jim Garlow: Even in the midst of his sharing, he said, “No president has ever spoken on this topic here in the history of the United Nations.” He actually stopped and said, “I was surprised by that. I even had my fact checkers go back and check that.” So, our current president is fiercely committed to religious liberty and has a strong sensing of the value the churches make in our societies today. From his very first meeting in Trump Tower with pastors, when he began to find out how much their hands were tied, for example, on the Johnson Amendment, he found that appalling. He’s the first one to ever run for office and then as a president constantly address the Johnson Amendment. He feels strongly about religious freedom and religious liberty. That could be a factor. I don’t have any information on the inside but that could be a factor in how this came down.
Gary Dull: Jim, I’ll tell you the truth. We are thankful for Donald Trump and for the way that he’s been very faith friendly and very friendly to the local church ministry. I think that he’s the most faith friendly president we’ve had in a long, long time. But in relationship to this idea of the government giving funding to the local church, do you see any issues there as it relates to the First Amendment? Is it possible that we might be violating the separation of church and state as we understand it from that First Amendment?
Jim Garlow: No, I don’t see it at all there, unless there would be some strings attached that are not obvious at this point. It’s certainly not an endorsement of any given religion because this is offered to all houses of worship, a synagogue or a mosque can get it as well. Even a 501(c)(3) atheist group could get the funds as well, it’s not just churches. 501(c)(3)s, any not-for-profit corporations can get them as well. So long as it doesn’t prohibit the free exercise thereof and certainly does not involve an endorsement per se, so I don’t see any conflict there. Now, I know the secularists, they’ll try to find something out of it, but that is just not the case.
Gary Dull: Well, I’m glad that you made that clear. Of course, one of our listeners has just written in and said that 501(c)(3)s like The Salvation Army receive government funds for health and welfare activities, but have dedicated spaces in their facilities where the gospel can be presented, the two do not mix. And so I think that if the funds were received from government to the local church, it would be up to the local church to determine how those funds were going to be used to keep that separation. Is that correct?
Jim Garlow: In the PPP, as it’s currently written based upon… We have an attorney on our staff and based upon that there is no such regulations of the kind you just mentioned. Now, the ongoing support The Salvation Army receives, yes, that would apply to that. But as far as this specific piece of legislation, it could be used in any way any church wants the use it. Let me correct that, as long as when the compliance, and the compliance is this is for salaries, specifically salaries only, and it’s roughly two and a half months worth of salary. And so it has to be used, yes, for salary, retaining people. It’s a loan unless you keep all the people on. If you keep the people on, then it becomes a grant and it’s forgiven.
Gary Dull: Jim, we’re honored to have you with us today to teach our listeners, many of whom are pastors and church leaders about the relief package the federal government is putting together to help individuals, businesses, and even churches that may have or will suffer loss due to COVID-19. Now, you’ve written an article in your newsletter that you’ve entitled A Special Policy Issue. That was written, as you say in your words, in light of the current economic and church situations. Now, in that article you give 14 practical points churches must consider before accepting money from the federal government. Two brief questions, number one, how can people get that entire document?
Jim Garlow: It’s found on wellversedworld.org, repeating wellversedworld.org, and then click on coronavirus response. I might mention that there are actually two other articles. That’s one of three articles. Another one is Should Pastors Allow the Government to Close Their Churches? Another one just lists How to Think Clearly in the Midst of a Crisis and there’s 20 short videos, very short videos, that people will find there, wellversedworld.org.
Gary Dull: Folks, I would encourage you to go to that site. Those videos are well worth your time to watch, whether you’re a pastor or not, but particularly if you are a pastor or a leader in the local church. Thank you, Jim, for sharing that. But in light of that, in light of those 14 points that you have in that particular article, what’s the number one issue churches should consider before accepting any funds from the government?
Jim Garlow: Will it in any way, in any way, impair their proclamation of the gospel and declaration of biblical truth? In the present culture, where such a polarization that’s been taking place over the last 15, 20 years, it will cause the secularist to beat their drums even harder about their frustration that churches have tax exempt status. It’s going to bring a chorus of declarations of why the church now needs to be taxed because after all, not is only the community missing out on the taxes from property taxes, et cetera, but now the churches have actually received funds. And so that will be the mantra, that will be the chorus, it’ll be sung over and over by the secular, so we need to expect those two things to come very strongly.
Dave Kistler: Brother Jim, you said earlier in the program that as far as you know from your reading through this legislation as well as having an attorney on your staff read through it as well, you’re not aware of any specific strings that are attached that would in any way limit or prohibit or any way inhibit our proclamation of the gospel. But this is only as good as the people that have initiated this and you talked so clearly and powerfully and accurately about how this particular president is a strong advocate for religious liberty, which he is. In fact, it’s stunning how outspoken he’s been about it. But what if this situation itself extends much further, or if we were to have any other situation like this and there would be the same type proposal, what kind of things should church leaders be looking for as potential red flags? I mean, what should we be trying to keep our eyes and ears out or looking for paying attention to that could be a problem down the road?
Jim Garlow: Well, the number one issue is always the same, and that’s the SOGI Oaths. SOGI stands for sexual orientation and gender identification, and by oath that means commitment that one cannot distinguish… We have to recognize those who claim other sexual orientation or those who claim a gender identification different than the way they were born. We have to recognize that and cooperate with that kind of nonsense. Now, that would be the most pronounced, even before all this COVID-19 crisis had taken place, 501(c)(3)s that are not churches have already been facing that kind of a challenge. For example, in the state in which I live, I live in California, quite a number of 501(c)(3)s, non-churches, have moved out of the state because they simply can’t hardly function here in the state.
Jim Garlow: The other thing to watch for, in addition to the homosexual issue, the gender identification issue, will be a coercing people to hire outside the faith. In other words, no capacity to appropriately discriminate hiring of someone within one’s theological tradition. That could be another issue that you have to watch for extremely carefully. Those are the two primary ones that we’ve already seen affecting 501(c)(3)s that are not your churches, that could come back to bite us even as churches.
Sam Rohrer: Jim, you’re raising some great questions there. Let me go another direction here, and you’ve talked about this before, about there are no real precedents really of this type. This is really something unique and oftentimes… Legally you go back and look at a precedent and all of that kind of thing, but here it’s a little bit different. When you go to scripture and if you look at this, I just want to know how you’re balancing this personally and how you’ve examined it and that is this, this is established as a loan. Now, it may be forgiven if people aren’t let go, but do you not see one of the requirements here is that perhaps in these days, perhaps a church should be making some changes internally, but they cannot. So it’s a loan, what’s the Bible say about that? And even if the requirement there, that’s replaced that you can’t make any changes regardless of what may be happening for two and a half months, maybe they ought to be making a change. This is a string of some type. How do you answer that?
Jim Garlow: Well, if they make any changes, they’ll have to pay it back. A loan is a loan and they will have signed an agreement accordingly. That’s the reality of this. I don’t know if they can make a change, if they hire a position where they terminate a position, I’m not aware exactly how the document reads in that particular regard. They certainly have to be hiring the same number of people for certain and possibly even exactly the same people. But if they make any changes, you’re exactly right, it does have to be paid back and one becomes a debtor at that point and needs to pay the government back accordingly.
Gary Dull: Jim, as it relates to this entire package, do you see any future potential abuse by the federal government on our religious liberty? If so, what may that be and how should we be looking out for it?
Jim Garlow: Oh, the answer is yes, definitely. I do see the potential, great potential for future abuse. Freedoms run in triumvirates. They run in triads, they run in threes; political, economic and religious. Those three freedoms, they rise and fall together. If a country breaks through, for example, and suddenly has one of those freedoms emerge, the other two oftentimes will follow. Or if a country, in converse of that, loses one of those freedoms, the other two will oftentimes fall with it. So political freedom, economic freedom and religious liberty rise and fall together. Well, what has just happened right before our eyes? Unthinkable, elections have been postponed. That’s political freedoms. Number two, economic freedoms have been literally evaporated. We’re not allowed to do any commerce, essentially. I mean just look at the restaurants of America, closed. Unbelievable number of people out of work. This is an economic collapse of nature and then religious liberties have been significantly impacted. Now, they’ve been totally curtailed? No, not at all. But they certainly been impacted. We have all three; political, economic and religious liberties all profoundly impacted all at once.
Gary Dull: Well, folks on the program today, we’ve been talking about the church facing a financial crisis as the result of COVID-19, and many may be facing those issues right now. No doubt many churches have had members laid off from their jobs in recent weeks, and thus are possibly losing out on the tithes and the offerings that those people would give. When that happens, ministry is greatly effected. I know that pastors are concerned about that. Last week I personally spoke to a number of them who were basically seeking God’s direction as to what to do. As we wrap up our program today, we have a couple of more quick questions to ask our guest, Dr. Jim Garlow.
Gary Dull: Jim, first of all, let me say it has been a delight to have you with us and thank you for your clear answers. But there are some churches out there and some pastors that are really somewhat fearful, particularly the small churches. I think that some small churches may even have a very difficult time rebounding from this if it goes on too long. And so if you would Brother Jim, please speak to the pastors of the churches across the country who are now going through difficult times financially as it relates to COVID-19. What encouragement do you have for them, particularly as pastor to pastor?
Jim Garlow: Well, the first thing I would say is sort of both good news and bad news, and that is things you’re not going to be the same. Now, that’s bad news that we can’t adapt. It’s great news if we learn how to adapt to the new environment. I think there’s a second thing and that is that the small church, even though it’s probably struggling more economically, has been validated. Small church, average church in America is 75 people as opposed to 10,000. The result is a church with 75 people can be better cared for, rule of thumb, rule of thumb, than a church of 10,000, even with this all organized small groups as such. A third thing is the gospel really has gotten to a lot more people. A typical church, let’s say of a thousand, suddenly has 5,000 or 10,000 views happening. Now, I want to caution and I don’t mean to rain on the parade here, but we don’t need to be obsessed with the numbers, we need to be obsessed with the impact, otherwise pastors start assigning their self-worth based upon how many views they get. The views are going to probably drop in the future somewhat. I don’t want pastors disparaging themselves by virtue of that.
Jim Garlow: I think another thing is churches have gotten extremely creative and will continue to think through new ways. There’s going to be new breakthroughs of ministry like we have not seen. I think lastly, I don’t attach a great eschatological significance to the COVID-19 crisis, but I do think it’s a practice or a drill for final times. I spent 23 years pastoring a church here in San Diego and we spent millions, many tens of millions of dollars building a building. I don’t regret building the building because I know what happened there. But that same building, that I invested 23 years in and spent tens of millions of dollars building, that thing’s going to sit empty for one fourth of the year. It’s pretty shocking to think of that. As a result of that, I think the ministry has a chance to be less building centric and be much more on equipping actually the laypeople for their ministries, and that’s a good thing,
Dave Kistler: Jim, powerful statement. By the way, our family was just in France right before all of this got started and we went by the Notre-Dame Cathedral that burned earlier this past year. That building is going to cost one billion, with a B, to repair. I was told by folks there that the fire that raged inside that historic structure, it literally came within 30 minutes of causing the entire building to collapse, imagine what it would cost to rebuild that structure. Like you said, we have spent hundreds of millions of dollars building structures that now are not even being used. The church in many ways is being forced to fulfill its mission outside the walls, which is really where we should be, not just inside four walls, so powerful statement.
Dave Kistler: Let me ask you this, Jim, a lot of people are losing their jobs as a result of COVID-19, church members, they’re not able or don’t feel like they can give and tithe like they have in the past. Can you give some advice to them? What about ministries and people in the pew that no longer have access to give, like they normally do in an offering plate, obviously they can give online, but do you have any other suggestions as to how folks can go about accomplishing their giving even in a time when they’re suffering financial setbacks?
Jim Garlow: Well, this is a season of a great deal of fear. People fear they could get sick and even potentially die and then people fear of the economic consequences of this. Now, we have American Christians, I know this is a global pandemic, but at the same time in America we have been really… We’re just going to have to go through this type of thing that much of the rest of the world has in the past, and so we’re going to discover how faithful God is in ways that we have never learned before. We say we trust him for everything and he’s our provision, but we really haven’t had to actually rely upon that one. And then also this is a great opportunity for us to… the one another’s of the Bible, the household of faith, caring for the household of faith. This can be a time of unbelievable sharing.
Jim Garlow: And this can be a time also… Now, I reckon most people who have jobs can still give online or the checks can be mailed through the U.S. Mail Service, which is still running, but this could be an opportunity where people learn to give of themselves. They’re going to learn to contribute time in ways that they have not. I appreciate Vice President Mike Pence who, on at least two occasions, one of them being Good Friday, he specifically reminded people, “Financially support your houses of worship. This is hard for them.” I think we may come out of this with a much more expanded version of how we give and a much greater reliance on God himself. So when we say, “God is my provision,” it’s not simply some tried expression, it’s something that is the core of who we are.
Gary Dull: Jim, I want to thank you so very much for being with us today. I’m wondering if in just a minute or less, maybe a minute and a half, why don’t you briefly share about Well Versed Ministries and give your contact information so that people can get in touch with you, if you would please?
Jim Garlow: Yes, go to wellversedworld.org and they can sign up. We’d be glad to include them in a newsletter. There’s a place for them to sign up there. We bring biblical principles of governance to government leaders. Now, we also have training for laypeople and for churches. My book, Well Versed, for example, same name as our ministry, that obviously provides the same, wellversedbook.com is another site they can go to. But we bring biblical principles of governance. We have Bible studies for U.S. Congress members, weekly Bible studies every Wednesday morning. We have Bible studies at the United Nations on a weekly basis, each Tuesday. Our little team has met privately with 91 of 193 ambassadors at the United Nations. We co-sponsor a Bible study in the Knesset with Jews and Christians studying the Tanakh, the Hebrew scriptures, the Old Testament together. And then finally as God opens doors, now this one’s a little tougher one, but as God opens the doors, because he has too, small delegations of us will meet with heads of state; presidents, prime ministers or kings. We’ve met so far with 10, and the doors have opened for a couple more now, as soon as we can travel once again. We try to bring biblical principles of governance to government leaders any time we can.
Gary Dull: Thank you Jim Garlow for being with us. Folks, go to Well Versed Ministries, learn more about them, support them where you can.