This transcript is taken from a Stand in the Gap Today program originally airing on 8/11/23.  To listen to the program, please click HERE.

Isaac Crockett:                  Welcome to the program, I’m Pastor Isaac Crockett, and joining me as usual on the Friday programs is the Honorable Sam Rohrer, the President of American Pastors Network. And Sam, we have a good friend returning today. This is one of the things I love so much about Stand In the Gap today, Stand in the Gap Media being a part of the American Pastors Network, is that there are just so many pastors all over the country, all over the world that we get to talk to and get to know and develop relationships with. And so today it’s a pastor friend of ours who’s returning. He’s been on this program and on our TV program multiple times, people will probably remember Pastor Matt Trewhella.

He’s the pastor at Mercy Seat Christian Church near Milwaukee, Wisconsin. He’s the author of the book, the Doctrine of Lesser Magistrates, founder of a Ministry, Missionaries to the Pre-Born, and many other things we could talk about. He has a lot of information, he’s a wealth of information and I’m so happy that we get to talk to him today. Pastor Matt, welcome to the program. Thanks for taking time to be on with us again.

Matt Trewhella:                Yeah, it’s great to be here with you, Isaac, a real honor. God bless you.

Isaac Crockett:                  Sometimes I say it sort of jokingly, but I really do mean it seriously. We’re always happy when pastors come back on the program, that we didn’t scare them off from the different times they’ve been on with us, and you’re one who’s very courageous, so I know that you’re not afraid of speaking the truth. Well, Matt, last week what caught my attention is I was reading some articles about some Christian young people who were making the news, in my opinion, for good reason. So many times, many people look at the younger generations, teenagers, college age students, and they think, Oh, what is our world coming to? And what is wrong with these young people? But this was one of the situations where I was saying, “Amen. Look at these young people, willing to stand like Daniel and Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego,” and actually they were arrested, and you say you were glad they were arrested, but they were standing up, they were reading scripture, and I saw this, it took place in Watertown, Wisconsin, a town that I’m familiar with because my family used to live there.

And the more I read of the story, the more interesting I found it. Then I started seeing on other websites and I saw, which is your website. I saw that there was a connection to you and that this had actually happened to young people from your church, including your own daughter, was arrested by the police. So a little bit later in this program we’re actually going to play, the Lord willing, a recording of you that day, I think this was on July 29th of this year, 2023, you, that day, talking to the law enforcement, to the lesser magistrates, if we want to call that, talking to those law enforcement officers, some of them that you could talk to that day.

I think that’s very interesting, an object lesson for us. But I just want to let you get us started and just tell us what happened? What led up to this event that’s relatively close to you? Watertown is close to where you live, and it’s an event that you had been at the year before. And so if you could give us a little bit of an idea of the purpose of why you were there and why these young people were there, and just the Christian group and the courage that they were having, praying and worshiping at this event.

Matt Trewhella:                Yes, absolutely. Well, I had two pastors contact me from the area, one of them, pastors in Watertown, and they asked us to come because there’s going to be this drag queen show for children. And they had this event last year. I was there last year, preached the word of God outside that event last year. Last year there was probably 40 Christians there, and the crowd that came to be a part of the drag show event was maybe 80 to a hundred. And this year, much larger. There was actually a hundred Christians out there. It was very encouraging to see. About 30 of them were young people, and there was probably 175 or so people there for the event, maybe 200, to actually participate and watch the drag show. So we went there because we wanted to point out that this is wrong. It’s against God’s thinking, it’s evil, it’s filthy.

And we wanted to minister to the people attending, pointing them to Christ, giving them tracts, giving them literature, just having conversations with them. And that was why we went. Evil. It has to be confronted. God’s thoughts, Christian thought, needs to be brought to these matters because this is a huge battle. And I told the people while we were out there, it’s extremely important. Do you see how important it’s we’re here? They had Nazis there. You had Gays Against Groomers there. Okay, they had homosexuals speaking against the drag queen show, you had Nazis speaking up, we need to bring Christian thought to this battle, to this matter. So we were out there, and the police had a hostile attitude towards the Christians right from the get-go. And it was very different this year. They had closed off the streets leading to the park with huge dump trucks and other municipal vehicles, so that you had to park blocks away and then walk in. And the police showed us the parameters of what we could do, and we were following those parameters.

And lo and behold, we ended up with four people getting arrested. And one of them was, as you mentioned, my 16-year-old daughter. She simply lifted her voice, which they said we couldn’t use amplification inside the area of where the drag show was going on, but we could raise our voice, and she simply raised her voice, but they took her out and arrested her. I had a son-in-law arrested. He literally did nothing. The police told him, stay over here behind the benches. He did. He was videoing the whole time, had his video camera going, fortunately. Two lesbians came up and started rubbing their bodies up against him and following him, pushing against him, and the police came and arrested him. And then another woman simply had a sign inside the area and she was taken out, under arrest and given a citation.

Her citation, I looked at the ordinance after she was released and I said, “This doesn’t even apply to you. This is about if someone puts a sign on affixed to a telephone pole or you plant the sign in the ground. When you’re holding a sign like you were, that’s first amendment activity, which meant fought bled and died for us to possess.” So she’ll have to go to court regarding that. My son-in-law ended up with a citation that ordered him out of all Watertown Parks for seven days. I looked up the ordinance and yeah, the city did give the police the authority to do that, so he left. And then my daughter also was released. All these people were released within 35, 40 minutes after they were arrested. My daughter was released without anything. They just simply let her go. But I want people to understand, this was an awesome time of ministry.

We were having conversations, making a stand for righteousness, making God’s word and truth known. But unfortunately we had some police who clearly were siding with the evil. And what really bothered me about that, Isaac, was the fact that here in Wisconsin we have two laws dealing with teaching sexual matters to children in public places. They’re very explicit and they were clearly being violated. Understand, this drag show looks filthy. These are men dressed like women, very inappropriately, and then coming down into the crowd, you could stand there and watch, and the parents and the adults and the children are giving them dollar bills like they’re at a strip show or something. And every time a Christian was arrested, they all cheered and hollered and rejoiced that a Christian was being arrested. So it was very grievous to watch this knowing that their duty, and they had statutory law behind them, 94805, 94811. Wisconsin statute.

Isaac Crockett:                  Matt, they were not doing what they are called to do constitutionally or biblically, they were not doing… They took Romans 13, what they’re called to do, they turned it upside down. We’re going to be right back on Stand in the Gap today to talk about this more.

Isaac Crockett:                  Welcome back to the Stand in the Gap today Friday edition. I’m Isaac Crockett and Sam Rohrer is with me. And we’re talking to our good friend, a return guest, Pastor Matt Trewhella, from Mercy Seat Christian Church near Milwaukee, Wisconsin. He’s the author of the book, the Doctrine of Lesser Magistrates. He’s also, among other things, he’s the founder of the abolitionist ministry, Missionaries to the Preborn. We’re talking about a recent incident in Watertown, Wisconsin where he and a number of young people from his church and some other Christians were at a park, and they were just praying and worshiping and reading Bible verses, really good Bible verses about the fruit of the spirit and things out of a book of Galatians.

But there was a drag queen show going on, and it wasn’t the same as it had been last year. He was at that one too. But this was extremely vile this year. The men were very scantily dressed, and I’ve seen some of the videos. Pastor Matt was there firsthand with some of his family members and others from his church, very scantily dressed men, shaking parts of their bodies at the children and the adults there in very subversive ways, very wrong ways. And then people in the audience were actually stuffing dollar bills like they were at a strip club or something. And so here they were, they were the ones targeted by police and arrested. There were also Nazis there protesting it, and there were even homosexual groups there, Gays Against Groomers protesting it.

But it was the Christians who seemed to catch the ire of the police. And we’re going to talk more about that, but I wanted to play a clip. You’re going to hear Pastor Matt doing what we’ve talked about, about the interposing and talking to the lesser magistrates about their God-given rights, and in our country even their constitutional responsibility. So Tim, could you go ahead and play? This is about a two and a half minute clip, and then we’re going to talk to Pastor Matt about what he said in this clip.

Matt Trewhella:                So this is nothing new. When you look down through history, you’ll notice that, from time to time, men make evil through law. And that’s what’s happened here. Your mayor, the civil authorities here, are joining with evil. And those of you who are lesser magistrates, you carry the guns. You’re not just mere robots for the state. You have to answer to God also for what you do. So when they do something contrary to his law and word, your duty is not to obey them, but to tell them no. It’s called the inner position of the lesser magistrate. Extremely important to understand it. Romans 13, again, for those of you officers who just arrived, makes it clear that your duty is to punish the evildoers.

That would be the people over there that are sexualizing children. And your duty is to reward those who do good. That would be the people you’ve arrested. So you’ve totally perverted your God-given function and role. Turned it on its head. And we wonder how did evil get a foothold in Germany and the Soviet Union. It was because of the blithe compliance of all the authorities, that one after another, down the food chain said, “Yeah, I’m going to look out for myself rather than do what’s right and say, no, this is wrong.” And this is wrong. What they’re doing here is evil.

Are you kidding me? Do you see what’s going on up in that stage? Do you see they’re normalizing this to the minds of the children? When you’re older, these are the kids, they’ll be the people who decide whether you live or die when you’re elderly. This is what they’re training them in. So you have to make a decision to either go along to get along or, to some point, make a stand. At the very least, you shouldn’t be arresting the good guys and letting the bad guys have free rein. Your duty is to arrest the bad guys. There is an ordinance right here in town regarding instructing children and sexual matters. What do you think that’s all about? They’re instructing children in sexual matters. You could arrest them, but you chose not to. You chose to arrest the Christians who are simply out here praying and offering literature to people.

Isaac Crockett:                  So that was you, Pastor Matt, and you were talking to law enforcement officers. There was a large number of them that day, I think. I don’t know how many, I think maybe, you said maybe close to 50, but you were talking to as many as you could get. There was a big group of them. You were talking to them. And I want to give some time here for Sam to make some comments and Sam to talk to you, but could you just walk us through this? You told them, you said you’re not just mere robots for the state. What were you talking about? Just walk us through what you were thinking as you talked to the police like that. And then I’m also curious if you think any of them may be, just based on their nonverbal responses, if any of them maybe were actually listening to you?

Matt Trewhella:                Absolutely, yeah. And if people want to see the actual video footage, they can go to and our channel is Defy Tyrants. So, Defy Tyrants, they can see the footage. But the context here is I’m talking to about 10 officers. My daughter had just been arrested, marched across the parking lot, taken into their command post. They had a command post. And so there’s 10 officers out there, some other Christians were engaging the officers. So I waited until there was a break from no talk going on, and then I began to speak to them. And that’s what you saw what I said to them. And I wanted them to understand, and this is extremely important. Because Christians have abandoned the realm of civil government, wicked men have filled the void and have made their worldview law, policy and court opinion. And the truth of the matter is we, as Christians, and especially as churchmen, as a pastor, need to go to the magistrates and instruct them in their role, in their functions, in their duties, in their limits as found in the word of God.

Not to mention also the US Constitution, and our state constitution. As we live in America and we live in Wisconsin. This is important for us to do because they need Christian thought regarding the office that God has given them. Because Romans 13 makes clear they are a deacon of the Lord. They are a servant of the Lord. They are minister of the Lord in the role that they have. So I wanted them to understand that they’ve totally turned it on its head. They’ve perverted their God-given functional role. They’re arresting the good people and rewarding the bad people, when they should be arresting the bad people and rewarding the good people. Totally turned everything on its head, which was grievous to see. And I noticed that some of the officers, really when I began talking, you could see conviction, and a different tone in their body language as I spoke.

And then there were other officers, they were just totally unimpressed. And that’s why it’s important for them to understand they’re not mere robots for the state. Recently, Isaac, I was asked to speak at the National Sheriff’s Association. This is the sheriffs of all 3000 and some counties in America, gathering together once a year, and they asked me to give the sermon at their prayer breakfast. It was held in Grand Rapids, Michigan this year. I was honored to do that. And I did the sermon on the most sacred duty of the civil magistrate. And we need to speak to all magistrates of all levels, including the lowest of magistrates, the police. These are the guys who carry the guns and carry out the orders from lawless magistrates. They need to understand they’re not mere robots for the state. They will answer before God. And God has given clear instruction in his word, what is good, what is evil, what is right, what is wrong, what is just, what is unjust. And they need to understand what exactly their duty is.

Sam Rohrer:                      And Matt, let me jump in here on this because… It’s great to have you on here. And in the past you’ve been on the program with Isaac and I before, and we’ve talked about these very principles about Romans 13, about the purpose of government, the fact that they’re going to give an account to God, whether they’re in an elected office or an appointed office like a police officer. But in the next segment, I think we’re going to talk about two prongs of an approach that you have talked about, that we’ve talked about, that need to be done. And you were doing both of them actually in this setting.

But let me go back and ask this, for those who have not seen that video, just out of curiosity, you said that some of these officers to whom you were talking, seemed to listen and seemed to be impacted by what you were saying. Some of them were just tuned out. That’s not any different really than people generally. Some listened to Christ and some rejected him. So that’s not an abnormal thing from that perspective. But here’s my question, just out of curiosity, what were the ages of these fellows? Who was listening? The older? The younger? Did that not make any difference? And then I want to ask you a follow-up then after that.

Matt Trewhella:                Yeah, the age didn’t seem to make any difference. And you’re exactly right. It’s like when we go out and tell people about Jesus, you see them being impacted and others totally indifferent. And that was the same case here. But yeah, there was one female officer, the rest of the officers were all males, and some of them were young, in their twenties, and some were clearly into their fifties.

Sam Rohrer:                      Okay, let me ask you this as a question, as a follow-up, because when listening to you and watching you, there are some that are listening who are saying, “Well, I don’t know what I would say in a circumstance like that.” Like you did. I’m going to say you were very controlled, you weren’t angry, you weren’t mean, you weren’t anything of that type. You were just talking to them. Just from the standpoint of how you felt in a circumstance like that. You’re in a setting, you’re confronting police, you see people being arrested, you are speaking the truth. What kind of emotion were you feeling inside of you, Pastor Matt, when you were talking to him? Were you afraid? Were you wondering what you were going to say? How’d you approach that?

Matt Trewhella:                Yeah, no, I wasn’t afraid. Been out on the streets for years doing ministry. I’ve encountered thousands, and I’m not exaggerating, officers over, I’m pretty old now. By the way, I’m turning 63 today, so it’s my birthday. So it was… Here was my thoughts, Sam. It was, I need to instruct them. I just viewed it as a great, okay, here’s 10 officers standing here together and I want to talk to them. And I had already given some of the officers my cards on the doctrine of the lesser magistrates, and talked to them privately before this even took place.

Isaac Crockett:                  That is excellent that you were trying to help them. You weren’t there to holler at them because they had arrested your daughter. You were there so they could understand what they needed to know. This is so amazing. We want to talk to you about that, and about how all of us can understand that better. When we come back from the short time out to hear from some of our partners. We’ll be back on Stand in the Gap today, and we’ll talk about a two-prong approach that you teach.

Isaac Crockett:                  Welcome back to the program. I’m Isaac Crockett, and Sam Rohrer and I are talking with Pastor Matt Trewhella about this incident in Watertown, Wisconsin, a small town in the Midwest, typical small town. And if you don’t think these things can happen in your town, take note of this. And we’ll hopefully be able to put some links on our social media.

So if you’re watching this program, go to our Facebook or to our Twitter page. I know that it’s on Twitter and I think that we should be able to put some of these same links on Facebook then. But watching these videos, you just heard a video of Pastor Matt talking to a number of the police officers that day who had arrested his daughter, his son-in-law, some other young people from his church for reading Bible verses ostensibly. One lady, I think they cited her for having a sign in the park, which they cited her with a law that doesn’t even apply to her. But all of that to say that this is going on, these things are happening. It’s important for us if we’re going to stand in the gap for truth to know how to do it. And so Pastor Matt, you talk about a two-prong approach. Matt, Sam’s already alluded to it in talking about what your church was involved with. We’ve seen this going on, but could you talk to us about what is the first step to this two-prong approach?

Matt Trewhella:                Yeah, absolutely. And I would like to mention there was another arrest from the ones I had mentioned earlier, and that was the one that went viral. And that was a young man from our church named Marcus. Good young man raised in a good Christian home, been attending our church the last three years. He’s one of five people I know who’s listened to every sermon I’ve posted, which I don’t post every sermon. And that’s hundreds of sermons. And good young man. And there’s video footage also of him speaking to the common council of Watertown three days after the event. You want to get a little idea of this young man and his love for the Lord and his caliber. That’d be good. But the two-prong approach that we take is, number one, we’re fishers of men. So we bring the gospel to people, we bring God’s law, his word and his gospel. We are his ambassadors. We are his ministers. We want men to know Christ. We want men to know Christian thought. So we need to go to the streets.

And so we go to the universities. We go to busy intersections to speak. We go to gatherings like this in order to bring Christ out into the marketplace and point men to him and his way. That is massively important. We need to see repentance in this country and we need to see repentance in our own lives. We need to see repentance in the body of Christ and his church, and we need to see this nation called to repentance. It is in utter rebellion against God. And so that’s the first prong. I tell people, I have this website and I have this little card that I give to people. And I got the website And I give that out everywhere I go, just through my daily day, because we’re fishers of men and we need to present Christ to men, and make his law and word and gospel known to men. So that’s the first prong, simply going to the people, going to the streets as Christ taught.

Sam Rohrer:                      All right, that’s great. And that really, Matt, for those listening, we talk here all the time about what should we be doing in these days when as believers we’re seeing a move into lawlessness and immorality? Both which were on display right there at that event where you are at. And it is, it should motivate us to share the gospel, declare the gospel, exactly what you’re talking, that first prong. All right, now let’s go. You have a second one. What is that second one? How’s it connect to the first one?

Matt Trewhella:                Yeah, it’s part of our Christianity too. The second prong is that we must talk to the civil authorities. We must instruct them in their roles, duties, functions, and limits as revealed by the word of God. Now, this is massively important. When you have evil of this great nature, drag queen shows for children, genital mutilation going on of children across the country. It has to be confronted. And Christianity in America is too long been pussy footed where it’s wants to be liked. And that’s the paramount thing. And no, when evil raises its ugly head, the Christ-like loving thing to do is to confront it. And it needs to be confronted with the magistrates. Also, because they’re the ones promoting this, like the mayor of Watertown, she was out there, she’s pushing this and promoting this. And let me say this, you have to understand the homosexuals already have all the big cities locked up with their influence and their filth.

Now over the last couple years, at least here in the Midwest, they’ve come into the villages in the hill country in every town, and they’re trying to impose it there. And what we found is that there’s many NGOs, non-government organizations and private organizations coming to the magistrates, these local villages, towns, with money and with lawyers. And so we see capitulation after capitulation of the magistrates, because either they love the money and they’re good with all the homo sex anyway, or because they’re intimidated by these lawyers. And so it’s extremely important that we as Christian people go to the magistrate and instruct them in their duty in the sight of God, and let them know we’re standing with you four square with our person, with our property, with our prayers, and we’re going to do it publicly at the public hearing, addressing this evil. And we’ll also do it privately, and let you know, “Hey, we’re standing with you.”

This is extremely important. So that’s our two-prong approach. Go to the streets, point people to Christ, declare the truth of his word, and at the same time you must go to where the magistrates gather and we must instruct them. This is something that’s been lost on Christianity just over the last 150 years. When you look at the prophets of old, they went to the magistrates, Christ engaged the magistrates, the apostles engaged. Paul’s first convert and his Gentile very first mission was a magistrate. He was trained a magistrate. The early churchmen always spoke to the magistrates. The apologists spoke to the magistrates. Their apology started addressing the emperor or some Roman governor first and then the people. They understood this importance. The reformers, during the 16th century, made it clear that, yeah, God’s word speaks to every area of life, including the area of civil government, and it is the role and function of the churchmen and the Christians to make clear to the magistrates what the duty of their office is and their function and their limits.

Isaac Crockett:                  Pastor Matt, that is great. We’re talking with Pastor Matt Trewhella from Mercy Seat Christian Church out of the Milwaukee, Wisconsin area, and hopefully have some of this posted on our Facebook site, of videos and things. I know the Christian Post had an article about this and several other groups, like you said, some of this has gone viral. And you can watch more of those videos. You can see writing about this. But what you just said about the two-prong approach there, that is excellent information. Sam, I want to go to you because you’ve written a lot about this. We’ve done a lot of programs about these sort of things, those two approaches in particular. What do you want to say about this?

Sam Rohrer:                      Well, Isaac, I want to follow up, Matt, and what you just said, that is perfect. Again, ladies and gentlemen, we have many programs where Matt has been with us before, where we’ve been talking and we’ve talked about what the word of God says. Can I just follow up here, Isaac, this is what I just want to say to those who are watching. That confrontation of any type is not easy, and it’s not the confrontation that produces the result, it is the confrontation by the truth of God’s word that makes the difference. And in these kind of settings, I just want us all to think about it. Matt, I know you were not there opposing people per se, as much as raising up the standard of biblical truth and saying there’s an alternative everyone here to what we see happening, which is compared to God’s word, not what we think, but what God says to be evil.

We have a duty, we have a responsibility, Matt, then that walks into how you talk to the police officers or the mayors and that kind of thing. But ladies and gentlemen, can I just tie in one thing here? We’ve talked about it before. I’m going to hold it right up for those who are watching it. The book we put together, America’s Roadmap to Renewal identifies 11 principles that our founders understood, this worldview that Matt described of understanding the role and the nature of God, understanding the role and the nature of man, being sinful and where it goes, and understanding the purpose for government and the purpose for law. Essentially what every person needs to know in any position of authority, if they’re going to do what God says is the purpose of government. So the only way somebody knows what Romans 13, ladies and gentlemen says, and the purpose of government praise, those who do well, punish those who do evil, is that they must understand the principles that God lays out.

We’ve taken those 11 principles, a lot of quotes from some of our founders that are in here. A lot of this from William Penn laid it out very clear, but you can find it in this book and you can do it on Amazon. I would encourage you to get it. It’s very simple. And I’m saying it goes together extraordinarily well with Matt’s book, Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrates, which is an application of the truth to what people should do in approaching those impositions of leadership. But Matt, there’s a big difference, isn’t there, between knowing the truth and acting upon it. And that’s what you’re talking about, going out, confronting. You can’t have anything to say unless you know what the truth is, can you?

Matt Trewhella:                That’s correct. And yeah, I’ve learned over my years, Sam, that men love theory, they despise application. What we need to see is Christianity applied in the culture. I hope my little talk there to the officers provided some example for that. What you said about confrontation is so true, Sam. And I have people contact me up and they say, “I don’t like to confront. I have a fear. How can I overcome it?” I always… “First off, here’s what helps you overcome it. Number one, love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength.”

Isaac Crockett:                  And we’re coming on it. [inaudible 00:30:37] That is great and that is the most important right there, is our love for God and having the right heart for God. We’re going to come back and ask you for more of that and talk and apply especially to us as Christians. We heard what you had to say to the magistrates, the lesser magistrates, to law enforcement. We’re going to be right back, finish up this program on Stand in the Gap today.


Isaac Crockett:                  Welcome back to the program. I’m Isaac Crockett, and Sam Rohrer and I are talking with Pastor Matt Trewhella about how we can take a stand for what is right, standing in the gap for truth, and how we can have a two-prong approach to our culture, to our nation right now. And that is by evangelizing, using every opportunity we can to go out to the streets, to the highways and byways and tell people the good news of Jesus Christ.

Tell them what God has done in our lives and encourage them to accept Christ as savior. And then on the other hand, go to our magistrates, all levels, from the law enforcement, all the way up to the office of President, doing anything we can to influence our magistrates, to seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, to tell them what their God-given roles are, especially in a nation like this. Well, Pastor Matt, I’d like for you to go back. You were starting to talk about our duties and what we need to do, starting with our love for God. If you could talk to us and encourage everyone who’s a Bible believer, and has a Christian worldview, a Christian listening to you today, what we can do and what our part of this is, and maybe even you could talk to pastors or church leaders who might be listening to this as well.

Matt Trewhella:                Sure. Yeah. Well, as I was saying, talking about what Sam was talking about, about confrontation, I have people contact me regularly. They’re fearful to confront the evil, they’re fearful about confrontation. Period. And I always tell them, here’s how you’re able to overcome that. Number one, you need to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. That’s number one. Number two, you have to hate evil. It says in Psalm 97, verse 10, “You who love the Lord hate evil.” You have to hate evil. You have to hate it for how it impugns God and His word and his ways. And you have to hate it because you see what it does to men when they live in rebellion to God and join in the evil. And then thirdly, you have to love people. You have to love the people involved in the evil.

You have to love people being impacted by the evil. That’s massively important. So love God, hate evil, love your neighbor. And if you do those things, you’re able to overcome your fears and you’re able to speak. And you never know how God’s going to use that. Like the little talk I did to the police, some young person put that up on TikTok. It has over 400,000 views, thousands of comments overwhelmingly in support of the doctrine of the lesser magistrates. I’m sitting there, Isaac, thinking to myself, this is TikTok, and they’re talking about the doctrine of the lesser magistrates. Praise God. Right? I don’t even want anything to do with TikTok. I don’t even tweet, I’m that old, right? But it’s here. So anyways, you don’t know how God’s going to use it. Even when you go out on the street, going to the university, to encourage people to do that, because these universities in America are teaching the young people to hate Christ and Christianity. And that is a fact, and it’s been going on for decades now. I’ve been out there for decades and I know what they’re teaching them.

And so I tell people the number one thing you’re doing when you go to the university to minister is you’re [inaudible 00:34:10] yourself as a Christian because the only verse they know is “Judge not lest you be judged,” but they’re judging you the whole time. And they have you completely stereotyped with what they’ve been taught by their professors or some bad example of a Christian that they know of in their private life. So you have to take the time and you have to have that love in your heart, which doesn’t mean you act mamby pamby, it means you talk honestly. And people can sense when you’re honest and when you love them. They can. And so we’ve had it so many times where two, three hours later, some of the biggest mockers put up their hand and say, that was the best defense of Christianity I’ve ever heard of in my life. You’ve given me so much to think about. It’s extremely important for Christians, like you said, about what Christ said, to go out into the highways and byways and to compel them to come in. We must do that.

Isaac Crockett:                  Well, this is excellent. I love this topic, and I’m just so thankful for what you’re talking about. Having that love for God first and then love for the people that he created and having that straight. If we allow bitterness to get into us, “Oh, you wronged me, so I’m going to wrong you back.” That’s what the enemy wants. They want to destroy everything and get us all upset with each other, but we want to love God and love people. I would encourage all of you who are listening to go to That’s your website, On there you have a couple of books that can be purchased, the book, the Doctrine of Lesser Magistrates, and then the Magdeburg Confession, which is where that doctrine, much of it originates. So I would encourage our listeners to go there. Pastor Matt Trewhella, we are so thankful for the work you are doing.

We’re so thankful to have you on. Every time you’re on this program, it’s a neat learning experience. And just thankful for this opportunity that has come from you taking the courage and those young people taking the courage to stand up for what is right. Sam, I want to go to you now and just have you comment on, again, this is an object lesson for us that just happened a couple of weeks ago. But just encourage us with what we’ve heard today and tie it in with what you are often every day really preaching here with a biblical worldview.

Sam Rohrer:                      Well, Isaac, I thought I was saying Amen, Amen, Amen to what Matt was saying. If we hold to the truth, the truth of God’s word, and we respond to that, then we will have accepted Jesus Christ as our personal savior. We become a new person, born again, new identity in Christ. We are now his, not ours. We have a mission that’s established, an ambassador for Christ. We have a reason for being here, but it’s manifested in what he said, which is so absolutely true, and I’ll repeat it. Love God. If we really truly love God, we will love what God loves. And I won’t go through all of that, but there are a number of things that God loves, but we’ll also hate what God hates. That’s extraordinarily important. And then one of the manifestations of a true believer is that we will love others as ourself.

How in the world can we love others if we don’t share the gospel with them? How can I love somebody if I never tell them about Jesus Christ and the way to heaven? I would be making a mockery of what I say. And so Isaac, I think the instruction here for everyone is that when we truly know the Lord, it will result in a behavior that looks like Christ, that will reflect those things, love God, hate what God hates, and we will love others, and we will declare to them the gospel of Jesus Christ. And within that, then we do know that when we choose to do that through the power of the Holy Spirit, he will give us the courage and the words to say. And that I would hope would be an encouragement for all who are listening. And you know what? We never know what the impact is going to be.

That’s the thing. We don’t have any idea. Just like Matt shared, he did what the Lord has called him to do and what he teaches others to do and what we say here to do. Standing in the gap for truth is a way to do it appropriately. He had no idea when he engaged in that conversation with those police officers lovingly, straightforward, confidently exactly what a believer would do. And then to know that somebody was filming it and it goes 400,000 views already. Isn’t that an amazing thing? The Lord can do that. So I just say that as an encouragement to people, because if individuals listening to this program all across the country would take the opportunity when it comes their way, just think of a million people were just to stand up where they were and challenge evil biblically with an answer. Just think what could happen. And I think that’s just a wonderful thing. This is a great teachable moment.

Isaac Crockett:                  Amen. Sam, would you close us quickly in prayer?

Sam Rohrer:                      Thankful that we have the ability to speak with Matt today. Thank you for his willingness and courage to encourage others to do what he did. Thank you for the response and pray that others watching and listening today would be encouraged to do the same thing. We pray in Jesus’ name, Amen.

Isaac Crockett:                  Amen. Amen. Thank you, Sam. Thank you Pastor Matt Trewhella. And on behalf of everybody here at the American Pastors Network and Stand in the Gap media, thank you for listening. Please use this program, use these resources, check these things out and share this with others. Tell them the truth. Have that love for the Lord and love for others, and stand in the gap for truth where you are today.