Eternity Realities: What’s Up with Heaven?
June 4, 2024
Host: Dr. Jamie Mitchell
Co-host: Pastor Steve Harrelson
Guest: Dr. Cory Marsh
Note: This transcript is taken from a Stand in the Gap Today program originally aired on June 4, 2024. To listen to the podcast, click HERE.
Disclaimer: While reasonable efforts have been made to provide an accurate transcription, the following is a representation of a mechanical transcription and as such, may not be a word for word transcript. Please listen to the audio version for any questions concerning this dialogue.
Jamie Mitchell: Hello friends and welcome to another week of Stand in the Gap Today. This is Jamie Mitchell, the director of church culture at the American Pastors Network and in the co-hosts seat. Today with me is Pastor Steve Harrelson. Before we get to our program today, some breaking news, Supreme Court of the United States ruled today in a unanimous decision that Colorado cannot ban President Trump from their ballot and that will have far reaching effects on the other states that are attempting to do that. Obviously, Sam or others on our team will probably weigh in on some of that this week, but we wanted to give you that breaking news. Now, back to our program. Today, we’re going to do a two-part series today and tomorrow on I think a really important subject. There’s an old Negro spiritual entitled Ain’t Going to Heaven. The words go like this.
Jamie Mitchell: Well, I read about the streets of gold, I read about the throne. Not everybody calling Lord, Lord is going to see that heavenly home. Everybody talking about heaven, that ain’t going there. Everybody talking about heaven, that ain’t going there. Everybody talking about heaven that ain’t going there. Oh my word. Well, obviously I do not do the song justice and it lacks some obvious theological accuracy, but it does communicate what Christians should be considering and thinking about, and that is eternity We are in. The Eternity Business was once said by an evangelist, we are to enlighten, educate, encourage people about the reality of heaven and hell. The good news is that we know how to get to heaven and that is through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. And we also need to be crystal clear about Hell, how awful it is, and that we would never want to go there nor would we want anyone to go there.
Jamie Mitchell: And if you review the preaching calendars of most pastors today, they teach little about heaven and even less about Hell. There is a myriad of misnomers about both places more myths and wistful thinking floating around concerning the subject of both eternal destinations. The truth is, if you gave most Christians a 10 question quiz on the specifics of heaven or hell, I would be surprised if the lion’s share of those believers could pass the test. The ramifications of this lack of knowledge regarding eternity is that the Saint will never get excited about where they’re going and they will probably get entwined with the world too much but worse, the loss will never fear their future today and tomorrow we want to clear up the confusion, offer some clarity on both Heaven and Hell. It’s what I’m calling eternal realities. Tomorrow we’re going to consider so what’s Down with Hell, but today we want to start it on up note and look at what’s up with Heaven and to help us in this conversation as a repeat guest, Dr. Cory Marsh, professor at Southern California Seminary. Cory, welcome back to Stand in the Gap.
Cory Marsh: Well, thanks Jamie. I’m happy to be on the show with you again and it’s great having Steve join us this time. As with my last appearance, I appreciate the invite from Stand in the Gap today and I’m looking forward to our conversation on a very important topic.
Jamie Mitchell: Well, Cory, you heard my opening, am I right? Is there a lack of teaching and understanding of the church today about eternity and what is waiting for both the believer and sadly the lost after life on Earth is complete?
Cory Marsh: Yeah, I wish that were not the case, Jamie, but unfortunately it is. Your entire opening really sets up well the importance of understanding such crucial biblical realities as heaven and hell in the eternal state. And yet I believe with you that there is a lack of discernment and accurate knowledge about the afterlife. Too many Christians get their theological education from movies or bestselling Christian novels, maybe contemporary Christian music or even from artwork that saturate the mind with images about heaven or hell that just don’t line up with the only source that matters on these doctrines, the Bible. And because of this, I would link this obsession with seeking out theology everywhere, but the scriptures, what I spoke on before on your show, and that is the dreadful state of most American Christians being biblically illiterate.
Steve Harrelson: Brother Cory, this is Pastor Steve here. It’s an honor to be on with you today. So really looking forward to this discussion. I love theology as a pastor, but there are some Christians that don’t really have that as their passion and they will sometimes take a look at theology as if it’s just a bunch of trifles, but we can’t get this wrong. The fact is we really must anchor our beliefs to truth. Can you explain to us why that’s true, especially in regards to heaven?
Cory Marsh: Great question, Steve. You’re right. We need to anchor our belief in truth because if something is untrue, then it doesn’t deserve our allegiance, right? And of course, this highlights the need for appealing to a trustworthy authority, and whatever that authoritative source is is going to determine how we live in light of what it teaches. And for us Christians, especially as evangelicals and biblical fundamentalists, our ultimate authority cannot be personal feelings or experiences, which too often become the source for people’s truths. Our authority also can’t be subjective reasoning or even church tradition. No, our ultimate authority must be big enough to transcend all human cultures and private experiences throughout time, one that is consistent and fallible and errands and authority on which we can confidently stake our lives both now in the present and throughout eternity. And of course, the only authority that meets the needed criteria is God’s written revelation.
Cory Marsh: That is the Bible. Now, if we believe that the scriptures are our ultimate and trustworthy authority, then it stands to reason we should consult it on what it teaches about heaven, right? Not TV shows, not day spring cards, not spiritualists or mediums, but the Bible, God’s revealed truth. And come to find out that Bible actually has a lot to say about heaven and the eternal state. I mean just both in the Old Testament and the New Testament, references to heaven are pervasive. For example, in the Old Testament, the Hebrew word Shama that the English translates heaven appears over 420 times. And the Greek word in the New Testament orran us, which translates heaven. That occurs over 270 times, and these are just a nouns. The adjective heavenly occurs almost another 30 times. So adding all this up, which I actually did, means that the Bible as a whole in the original languages speaks something about heaven 722 times.
Cory Marsh: And when you think about it, it seems almost crazy that a Christian would go to another source and neglect what the Bible teaches about heaven. Now, to be sure not every one of those appearances of the word heaven means how we typically mean by the word, which generally speaking is the dwelling place of God. But that said, heaven is also depicted in scripture as an other worldly existence of believers who are redeemed by Christ and who enjoy the bliss of being in the presence of the Lord upon death or maybe rapture if that was to happen first, and that heaven is the very dwelling place of and throne room of God. It’s an actual place where God dwells along with the departed saints. But like anything for correct meaning, context is what matters.
Jamie Mitchell: Amen. Hey, friends, I believe today is going to be a transformation of the mind day. We’re going to correct some bad theology about eternity. When we come back, we’re going to push back on the myths about heaven. Join us back here in a few moments for Stand in the Gap today. Well welcome back to the first in a two-part series that we’re doing on eternal or eternity realities. Today we are focusing on heaven and Dr. Cory Marsh is helping us bring clarity. Cory, I always say clarity is not our enemy. So let’s clarify some bad teaching that we probably have heard along the way about heaven, and I want you to take some to explain what are some common myths that we hear in the world and sadly we even hear among believers about heaven.
Cory Marsh: Yeah, that’s a good question, Jamie. I think it may be helpful before I get into some of the more common myths to give a few comments on how dangerous it actually can be to follow a myth about heaven and not what the Bible actually teaches about it. These types of myths may be a little bit more extreme than what we normally hear, but it does show that holding to a wrong doctrine of heaven can have devastating consequences. And one example is very local to where I teach here in San Diego. About 30 years ago, almost 40 people were discovered, all dressed the same and lying in bunks dead inside a rented mansion in Rancho Santa Fe, which is in San Diego County in California. It was a cult called Of All Things Heaven’s Gate led by this space alien enthusiast, Marshall Applewhite, who was also a former Presbyterian who loved to hijack terms and concepts from scripture and twist all their meanings, one of which was heaven.
Cory Marsh: And this cult leader claimed he was passed to lead his followers by spacecraft to the kingdom of heaven, which he calls the evolutionary level above human. And there the group would receive their glorified bodies coinciding with the arrival of the Halle Bop comment. I mean, this stuff is crazy. You can’t make this up, but it’s out there. Dangerous myths such as this really speaks to how seriously we need to take our theology from the Bible alone because the wacky demonic cults are out there and they love to lure their followers in by exploiting real biblical truths like heaven and promising them something totally different than what the Bible says about it. Now, of course, that’s more of an extreme example as I mentioned, but so many others are more popular and probably do more wide scale damage because they’re more subtle, they’re more cute, right?
Cory Marsh: They become almost ingrained in our everyday speech because they’re so ubiquitous among biblically illiterate and biblically illiterate and entertainment saturated cultures like ours. And one myth goes against what I mentioned earlier in the last segment about heaven being an actual place, meaning the Bible teaches Heaven is a real place where God dwells above all the heavens and promised and is promised for believers in Christ when they die or when they’re raptured. And though it’s a spiritual domain, it’s an actual location nevertheless, but the myth goes something like we can reach it if we just go high enough. Probably the most famous or infamous somewhat recent example of this myth comes from the Russian cosmonaut Yuri Garin in the mid 20th century. You’ll remember he was the first human to reach outer space, and when he got there, he infamously said quote, I see no God up here.
Cory Marsh: Now it’s disputed if he actually said those words, but it does speak to the myth that goes back to the Tower of Babel that we as humans by our own ingenuity and efforts, we can build our way up to God, not so Heaven is certainly a place, but it’s not any place any human can reach by flying into space or building a tall enough structure. It’s a unique spiritual dimension where God dwells in rules and a place where only believers go when they die. Now, apart from that one, I mean, how much time do we have for all the other common popular myths about heaven? Not enough time. Of course, Americans have made an entire industry out of it. Heaven gets reduced to a better place for nice people. That’s often the thing I’m going to a better place where they’re greeted by some little pudgy cha baby and given a harp to play on a cloud somewhere they’re given wings upon entry after they’ve answered a question from St.
Cory Marsh: Peter or St. Paul or some other famous saint in history as to why they should be let in. Maybe there’s even a Bible quiz you have to answer as you’re standing there with others to be let in. I mean, some think of heaven that way. Unfortunately, that being granted access is based on how much theology or how many Bible verses you’ve memorized. Too often, heaven is pictured in our culture as this ethereal, meaningless place where people turn into angels and get to hang out with their favorite dog or cat from when they were kids. All of these ideas come from outside the Bible and all of them trivialize that blessed hope that genuine Christians have, which is to depart from this world at death and be present with the Lord of glory in heaven.
Steve Harrelson: Professor, I need you to help me out here. Are you trying to say that I’m not going to get my wings like Clarence did in it’s a wonderful life? I mean, Peter is not standing at the gate right now checking people’s credentials. I mean, we hear such crazy stuff. I mean, I grew up watching shows like Touch by an Angel and Highway to Heaven. People that I run into are convinced that their pets are going to be there. I mean, are you trying to tell me that my dachshund melek is not going to be waiting on me when I get there? I mean, we talk about these things and yeah, we’re saying it kind of tongue in cheek right now, but to your point, this is very serious stuff. So professor, why do we pass along errors like these and why is it so crucial for us to really illuminate what the truth is, especially in regard to errors that gets passed around?
Cory Marsh: Right, right. Steve, for me, it’s very simple. First of all, there’s nothing to say that your dog or Cataldi is not in heaven. So maybe there’s that simple little hope that it might be there. But I appreciate the question. Of course, if the Bible teaches us what heaven really is and the Bible is the ultimate standard of truth in the world, then obviously we must get our theology of heaven from the Bible and nowhere else. And those errors and myths about heavens, like what you just mentioned and what I mentioned earlier, those are like Satan disguising himself as an angel of light. The errors may seem nice, they may seem attractive and pretty and cute, but in the end, they hold out empty promises that lead to destruction. They turn our focus away from Christ and being at home with him. So let me offer my plea along with you, Steve, to your listening audience please, Christians hear me, do not continue to pass along errors about heaven just because you like something about the error. Only what scripture teaches about it matters not what some movie or what some dream or a song you heard or perhaps a children’s book says about it. All that matters is what the Bible says about heaven because it is the Bible and not these other things where the doctrine of heaven is sourced. And again, it is the Bible that is our ultimate authority on truth here on earth. So our beliefs about heaven should be sourced in scripture alone and nothing else.
Jamie Mitchell: Let me run one myth by you and help us to give an answer. One of the things that I’ve heard said or maybe innocently referred to is somebody will say this, your dad is looking down from heaven at you today, or I graduate from college and my dad had passed away. And someone said, well, he’s here. He’s watching everything that’s going on earth today. What may be the problem with that kind of thinking?
Cory Marsh: Yeah, for number one, I would say that’s nowhere in scripture. Now, again, I don’t want to be that constant crusty fundamentalist just hitting everybody with the head of the Bible, but if heaven is a biblical doctrine and it’s spiritual doctrine we get from one source, which is scripture, which is in Aaron and infallible, then that is where we need to go to get our ideas about heaven. So those types of ideas which are nice, and we said even tongue in cheek earlier with Steve about pets being there. I mean, I would love to see my old cat, Mr. Toughens in heaven, but that’s not the hope we hold out for. The hope we hold out for is being in the presence of the Lord along with the redeemed saints, an absolute bliss and harmony, but it is a real holy place. So these ideas that whoever our friends or family that have departed, they’re looking down on us.
Cory Marsh: That does not come from scripture. That’s a nice thought. But there is nothing in the New Testament or the Old Testament that suggests anything close to that. Heaven is holy, heaven is blissful, heaven is for real, of course. And unfortunately too many places like a book and a blockbuster movie takes those turns and concepts and makes it something else, but there is nothing in Bible at all that tells us that our loved ones are looking down on us. And you know what? They don’t need to be if they’re in heaven and they are in the absolute bliss and presence of the Lord, and that should be taking all their focus, I would not want to take their focus away from that to look at me down here on earth. Thankfully, the New Testament or the Old Testament does not suggest any type of idea with our people in heaven looking down on us.
Jamie Mitchell: One of the things that I’ve said over the years when people say this, I say, I understand you need some comfort. Obviously you missed that person you wish that person was here sharing in this moment. However, a couple of things, they are so enraptured right now, being in the presence of the Lord. They are worshiping, they are experiencing the joy of their salvation, and the Bible’s very clear that as we’ll talk about in our next segment, there are certain things that are not happening in heaven. And one of those things is a weeping and pain and anguish that comes from living in this world. And I know it might give you comfort, but trust me, your loved one is not looking down here because of seeing the ugliness and the sin and all of that. And so this is important. Friends, if we accept and even pass along error about biblical truth, that we know for sure what is right.
Jamie Mitchell: It sets up potential questioning later on when you share truths to a lost person about redemption. If your theology about heaven has been wrong, why should people trust you on other subjects? We got to be consistent when we return. What does the Bible say about heaven? Come and join us in a few moments. Well, welcome back friends. Dr. Cory Marsh from Southern California Seminary is helping us understand heaven. Cory, the Bible speaks a lot about heaven. You mentioned earlier on some 722 times, so let’s be laserlike in our focus what 3, 4, 5 truths from the Bible must we get right about heaven?
Cory Marsh: Jamie, I love that question. And I also hate the question because I love it because I’m all about being succinct and boiling down to three to five points, right? But it is a challenging question because the Bible has so much to say on the topic it’s practically impossible to reduce everything the Bible says about heaven. A few bullet points, but I could try and maybe I’d start with this. The first may be that both the old and New Testament speak of an actual place where believers rise from the grave and enter into the afterlife. This is the predominant meaning in the New Testament when it speaks of Iran, us, or heaven. This means it’s an actual place, not a metaphor for something else. Heaven is the domain of God where he dwells and from where he currently governs the earth. For example, when Jesus was baptized, it says in Matthew three that the heavens opened and a voice from heaven said, this is my beloved son with whom I’m well pleased.
Cory Marsh: So heaven in this context is the absolute divine space, an actual place in sacred dimension where the son of God first ascended and where he currently resides at the right hand of the Father, it is where God dwells. Jesus also said in John 6 38, before I have come down from heaven and not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. And speaking of Christ, the apostle Paul says in Romans 10, verse six, do not say in your heart who will ascend into heaven. That is to bring Christ down. So the first truth about heaven is that it’s an actual place where God dwells and rules and where Christ is now physically. A second truth is that heaven is a place of reward, of glory, of peace and of rest, as well as excitement all mixed into one for those who trust in Christ.
Cory Marsh: This means it’s not merely a better place as is so often trivialized, nor is it the destination for everyone when they die. The Bible presents it as a temporary state of existence for those who have repented and who have trusted in Christ alone for their salvation. The temporal aspect would be my third point of what the Bible teaches about heaven. It’s not the final destination, which I’m hoping will discuss what that final place is here in a little bit. But heaven right now is a blissful, intermediate state of existence where believers go immediately upon death and into the presence of the Lord as they wait the future millennial kingdom as well as the new heavens and the new earth. So that would be probably my third point about heaven. Or maybe that was fourth, that was third, right? Yeah. I’m already getting mixed up in my memories here.
Cory Marsh: Paul speaks of a glimpse that he got of this blissful place in second Corinthians 12, two when he says he was privileged to experience it temporarily when he says quote, I know a man in Christ who 14 years ago was caught up to the third heaven. That’s probably a reference of him. The apostle actually seeing the dwelling place of God and departed saints who are waiting their glorified bodies. But he made it clear was for a man who was in Christ, meaning a genuine Christian. So I guess maybe the fourth and fifth truth about heaven from scripture I would say speaks to the nature of the actual life in heaven. The second Corinthians 12 goes on to describe it as paradise, where Paul heard things that he cannot be told, which man may not utter. And that same word for paradise in that passage is what Jesus used in his promise to the thief on the cross in Luke 23 to where he was going after he died, the man confessed Jesus as Lord in that scene, which is the most primitive Christian confession.
Cory Marsh: So he was a believer in that moment. And that word for paradise is also the same word John uses in Revelation two, seven to the church of Ephesus that Jesus will grant to one who conquers the E of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God. So taking all these together, I think we can say the Bible presents heaven as an actual place where God dwells along with saints who have died. It is holy, it is blissful, it is unimaginably good, it is temporary, and it’s also a promise given only to believers in Jesus Christ to enter immediately into his presence upon death. So Jamie, whatever we think about heaven, the Bible does not allow us to paint it as some lifeless or boring existence where we each get a harp and a cloud and welcome other people who are nice enough to enter it. No, the testimony of scriptures that is paradise. It is too incredible for words, but it is also the holiest space in all existence where the triune God dwells and rules. It is where those who place your faith in Jesus as the Christ and son of God are ushered immediately into his presence upon death, which is why the psalmist can say in Psalm 1 16, 15, that precious in the sight of the Lord, it’s the death of his
Steve Harrelson: Indeed. Professor, I’m going to ask you a question that I think that you’re going to enjoy unpacking. The Bible says, for the believing sinner, for those of us who are in Christ, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. We know that whenever we close our eyes and death and take our last breath, for those of us who have trusted Christ as savior, we’re going to be in the immediate presence of God in heaven. But to your point that you were making while ago, there is a lot left to be fulfilled on the prophetic calendar. I mean, we’re living in the church age right now. We’re looking for the rapture, the tribulation period is going to happen, the millennial kingdom is going to happen, and then the Bible says that the cosmos is going to be purged by fire as we enter into the eternal state. So can you explain to us about this new heaven that the Bible talks about and how it’s different from where my believing loved ones right now who have died currently reside?
Cory Marsh: Yeah, I’d love to Steve because I did hint at this earlier and hope that we get to it soon. So I appreciate question. It is important to realize as you brought up, that heaven right now is a temporary place, right? It is a state of existence for believers who died during this dispensation or this church age, or who are raptured if they’re alive, when the Lord returns from his church, but just like the present state of hell, which will be discussed on tomorrow’s show, the present state of heaven is what we call the intermediate state. It’s not the eternal state which will be in the new heavens and on the new earth as you brought up, but heaven now is temporary and intermediate. It’s where believers in Jesus go immediately upon death. Our souls apart from our bodies, and though we are in bliss, we are still incomplete in heaven at that point in the intermediate state, we consciously await our bodies to be resurrected in power and fit for eternity and join with our souls in the new heavens and the new earth, which is our final destination.
Cory Marsh: Another phrase for the new heavens and new earth is what theologians called the eternal state. The Bible also refers to it as the new Jerusalem. Now we’re not really told too much about it. Most details about this final destination are given to us in the Bible’s last two chapters. That is Revelation chapter 21 and 22. But we are told in those final two chapters in Revelation that the new Jerusalem will descend from the current heaven and God will dwell with his peoples plural, not people but plurals. So now we’re seeing multiple peoples of God, no more pain, no more tears in this final state, no more bad memories. Second Peter three also says a few things such as the current heavens and earth will melt away from the new heavens and the new earth to come where righteousness dwells. So the question often comes up, will it be a radically renovated and restored earth and sky and universe, or is it a completely new creative one and scholars debate on which one is more likely me?
Cory Marsh: I tend to agree with Michael block here that the current heavens and earth will be totally renovated and restored to what was lost in those first few chapters of Genesis, which makes the last two chapters of Revelation such a wonderful capstone of the Bible. In Acts 3 21, Peter spoke of the restoration of all things. So I believe that new heavens and new earth are technically, they’re restored heavens and they’re restored earth. And as Vlock argues in his great book, the New Creation Model, we should not think of the new heavens and new Earth through a platonic or gnostic paradigm that so many Christians do. That is who tend to overly alize its reality. Instead, we should think of it as the Bible presents it a real tangible, restored creation with real people and real ethnicities, real nations and real land. But what all can agree on is that the new heavens and the new Earth is the final home for believers where they live forever with God and with Christ himself, who is the light and the temple nations exist there, and kings bring their gifts to the lamb.
Cory Marsh: It says in Revelation 21 that it has 12 gates with the names of the 12 tribes of Israel inscribed on them, as well as 12 foundations with the names of the 12 apostles inscribed on them. But this along with the nations and the kings who bring their glory into it tells us that the distinctions between the church and Israel and even nations is kept throughout all eternity. This means we don’t absorb into one universal kind of people and lose all our unique identities. No, our unique identities are kept, but they’re glorified. And this brings glory to our creator God, who created every person with uniqueness, yet all who are incredibly enough are made in his image.
Jamie Mitchell: Cory, we’ve got less than a minute, and I’m going to ask you to do the impossible. And that is so I die absent from my body. I’m now in this heaven, this temporary place. What happens to the believer the moment I die?
Cory Marsh: Yeah, very quickly. That’s right, Jamie. When a Christian physically dies, their body remains on earth while their souls remain fully alive and entirely conscious at death, the soul separates from the body and it is immediately in the presence of the Lord. Jesus. You’re a believer. In fact, Paul uses a rare word for home technically this one particular verb to be at home in only two places, saying Corinthians when he’s referring to heaven, and he uses it to the word to express where our soul is, is where our home is. And he says that in two Corinthians 5, 6, 8. To be away from the body is to be at home with the Lord. So not only is our home in heaven and with Christ when we die, since that’s where our souls will be, but someone even say based on that text that upon death the Christian enters into the bema judgment or a judgment of rewards for the believer and not for punishment. Paul said in Philippians, while he was in jail, contemplating his own death for me to live his Christ and to die his gain at Philippians 1 21. And that is because Cory,
Jamie Mitchell: Hold that point. Hold that point. We’re going to wrap this all up. Come back and join us for the last segment. This has been a great joy to have Cory Marsh back with us discussing heaven today. Tomorrow, make sure you watch us listen to us again rather, and we’re going to have Cory’s pastor, pastor Ryan Day, he’s going to be sharing with us what’s down with hell. Cory, two things I want you to do real quick. Number one, tell people how to find out about Southern California Seminary and your ministry, and then could you finish up what you were just talking about? I had asked you the question about what happens to a believer the moment we die.
Cory Marsh: Sure. Yeah. I get so excited about talking about heaven. I kind of lose track of time, which I guess is a good thing because it is a wonderful place that we should be having hope anchored in Christ, in heaven, and knowing what’s going to happen when we die. To your first question, yeah. I’m professor of New Testament Southern California Seminary. As you’ve mentioned, I also lead our THM program and direct our publishing arm s press. People can get ahold of me from our website. It’s Southern California Seminary. It’s the website is so calem.edu. I also serve at my church, revolve Bible Church as our scholar in residence and myself and Pastor Ryan Day, who will be on the show tomorrow. We both, we have a show together, a podcast called Pastor Scholar, which you can find on YouTube or through our website at Revolve Bible Church.
Cory Marsh: Yeah, what I was saying earlier, just to finish up my point, Jamie, was that Paul was in what he said to the Philippians while he was in jail and he’s thinking about his own death. He says in Philippians 1 21, for to me to live as Christ and to die is gain, and this was because of Paul died, he’d be in heaven and get to be in the actual presence of Christ, which is gain or profit or advantage. We can translate that Greek word cardos, and he goes on verse 23 of verse Philippians one, I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ for that is far better. So from texts like these, it seems that there’s no time lapse between death and heaven. For the believer who dies to be away from the bodies, to be at home with the Lord, to depart our life here on earth is to be at home with Christ in heaven. Now, if I can, it’s also worth mentioning in the story that Jesus told of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16, when Lazarus died, he was immediately taken to Abraham’s bosom ushered into paradise by angels, in fact. So the New Testament’s witness is clear that immediately upon death of believers in the presence of Jesus, which is far better than anything experienced on Earth,
Steve Harrelson: Professor, this is Pastor Steve again. First of all, I really appreciate your scholarship and this is such an encouraging topic today as we bring this very brief look at heaven to a close, can you share with us as Christ followers, why exactly getting our theology about heaven right is so important for our spiritual lives.
Cory Marsh: Oh, absolutely, Steve. I’ll say this, A correct theology of heaven should never yield an ambivalence to our culture or a passive life. Just waiting around to die, knowing where we’re going should motivate us right to live our lives faithfully for Christ in this world here and now. It’s interesting. In John 17, Jesus prayed to the Father and the night of his arrest, not to take us out of the world, but to keep us from the evil one. And as Paul said in Romans 14, for none of us lives to himself or none of us dies to himself for if we live, we live to the Lord and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s. He says, the idea is that you trust in Jesus with your eternity. That is if you believe he died for your sins, your life will reflect that belief here on earth.
Cory Marsh: The Christian life is a life of daily repentant faith. We do know where we’re going. When we die, the New Testament is clear. We’ll be at home with our Lord. However, that belief should never make us passive or lazy. Whether we live or die, we are the Lord and the world should know that about us by seeing that in how we live. So a biblical theology of heaven does not produce laziness or passivity or sinful living, knowing we’re just saved by grace. No, a biblical theology of heaven should motivate us to preach Christ while there’s still time to love people made his image to glorify God with our daily livings. Or to put it quite simply, our view of the future should impact our lives in the present.
Jamie Mitchell: Cory, you mentioned one of my favorite passages of scripture in two Corinthians 12. When Paul was describing himself, he said, I might sound like a madman, but I knew this guy, and he’s speaking obviously about himself, and the Lord allowed Paul a later apostle, not part of his original disciples, to see what was ahead of him. And Cory, I’ve always taught that God did that because of the tremendous suffering that Paul would endure. Am I somewhat right on that and is getting a good glimpse of heaven so helpful for us to endure the suffering that we’ll do here on earth?
Cory Marsh: Oh man, Jamie, to that, I say amen and amen. Yes, absolutely. There is no question about it. We as believers, believers in Jesus Christ are promised suffering in this world. It’s one of the just remarkable distinctions that’s actually made, I would say, between believers in the Old Testament and believers in the New Testament, the people of God, you see this shift, this transition, if you will, just by the phenomenon of suffering, where in Old Testament Saints, they suffered for their lack of faith or say covenant disobedience in the New Testament, believers suffer for their faith or their righteous faith placed in the righteous Christ. So it’s quite a thing that suffering for Christians as a Christian is not the exception. It’s the expectation. And because of that, I think with you, Jamie, that the New Testament is clear. We have a destination in place. We have a reward coming.
Cory Marsh: We have bliss ahead of us to help endure this present. And as I said earlier, our views of the future really should motivate our lives in the present. They impact our lives in the present. I’m glad you brought up Paul’s way of describing that very dwelling place of God, because I’ve mentioned it earlier, very briefly, that third heaven, he talks about ini Corinthians 12, so I don’t want to belabor the point here, but Paul was privileged to get a brief glimpse of where believers are headed when they die. I mean, he heard sounds too wonderful to utter in human words. I think I read that. I’m like, what did he hear? I don’t know. Maybe a different kind of music that we can never have on earth. I don’t know. That’s just something astounding, but whatever it was, I’m sure it involved praise and worship and just remarkably astounding glory as he’s in the presence of Christ.
Cory Marsh: Paul being granted this momentary access to heaven really makes the doctrine of heaven a little bit more personal and real doesn’t it? In other words, heaven is not just a doctrine. It’s a real place filled with love and joy and excitement in the presence of Christ that awaits every believer in Jesus. And Paul did not just teach it, he saw it. That’s just remarkable to me. Christians should certainly be encouraged by this, and from that perspective, why fear death? Indeed, as the psalmist said, as I quoted earlier, the death of a saint is a precious thing in the sight of God. This is when faith becomes sight, not just doctrine and death loses all its thing. To which of course we say amen and amen.
Jamie Mitchell: What an inheritance we have. What a hope we have. What a gift that God has given us to know beyond a shadow of a doubt, that when we place our faith in the Lord Jesus, his death, his burial, his resurrection, we will celebrate it in just a month, again, in a glorious way, but we do it every day because every day we need to be reminded that this is not my home. The suffering that I go through now is not going to be everlasting. I will be with the Lord forever and ever, and I will reign with him. What a glorious future brother Cory. Thank you. What a joy It’s been again to be with you. Most enlightening friends watch you to come back tomorrow. Pastor Ryan Day will join me, and we look at what’s down with hell. If you thought knowing about heaven was important, I would contend equally important is that we have to understand about hell. It’s not being preached until then. My encouragement as always, live and lead with courage. Have a wonderful day. Come back and join us tomorrow.
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