Politics, Pews, Passion, & Principles:
Navigating the 2024 Elections & Beyond
August 6, 2024
Host: Hon. Sam Rohrer
Guest: James Spencer
Note: This transcript is taken from a Stand in the Gap Today program aired on 8/6/24. To listen to the podcast, click HERE.
Disclaimer: While reasonable efforts have been made to provide an accurate transcription, the following is a representation of a mechanical transcription and as such, may not be a word for word transcript. Please listen to the audio version for any questions concerning the following dialogue.
Sam Rohrer: Hello and welcome to this Tuesday edition of Stand In the Gap. Today as today I engage a very practical focus on a dominant consideration for all Christian citizens, and I know that’s probably all of you listening to me right now. The theme I’ve chosen to frame today’s program is this, politics, pews, passion and principles, navigating the 2024 elections and beyond. And to provide a studied perspective and an input on this relevant theme is returning guest Dr. James Spencer. He is the president of the DL Moody Center and also president of Useful to God Ministries with a website@usefultogod.com. I believe it is.com. I’ll clarify that if it’s not just a minute. But anyways, with that in regard to that, this issue here, let me go into it from this perspective growing up in America that’s probably most of you have, we’ve been blessed. So mightily of God here, it’s easy to consider that our earthly citizenship and our interaction with our Christian life in ways perhaps beyond what is biblically modeled.
Sam Rohrer: We have an unusual view here as American Christians. It’s different than others around the world. It’s good to keep in mind. It’s undeniable that God in providential ways has used America to advance God’s greater purposes of and the plan of redemption. We talk about so much in this program and part of that of course includes helping to birth and nurture the Regathered nation of Israel. That’s happened. It’s significant. God’s used us significantly. It’s also undeniable that God has used this nation to help align the nations of the world for Christ return for his second coming as foretold in biblical prophecy. And we speak about that so much on this program did yesterday. It’s because we are watching these things come about. Yet over the years I’m going to submit that at any one given point in time, the citizens of a past generation or those in office or even pastors, were not able to actually say what was happening.
Sam Rohrer: God was working their plan before they ever came on the scene and was working more after they left the scene just like us. So it’s an interesting thing, but as a result, our uniqueness as a nation, a role as a golden vessel in God’s hands and recipients of God’s promised national blessings. As detailed in Deuteronomy chapter eight, frankly has shaped our view of politics, the church, the involvement of the pew and the passions by which we pursue the privileges we’ve enjoyed here in our representative republic, which is also unique yet for many the unusual and often conflicting nature of our post-Christian era in which we are now living accented by clear evidences of God’s judgment, which we again talk about regularly. All of this in the midst of a culture that has embraced a rebellion to truth embraced immorality and lawlessness. For many it’s disturbing.
Sam Rohrer: Even some Christians, they become angry, some fearful, some desperate others just wish to withdraw and become lethargic. So if you are among that mixed questioning friends how to think and consider the kinds of actions and thoughts to embrace in these uncertain and political days, you’re not alone. That’s all I want to say. What I just described is we’re all sensing it. I think in fact these types of questions are the driving reason for an event that’s coming up referred to as politics in the pews scheduled for the end of August in Grapevine, Texas, many well-known speakers are going to be there, including my guest right now, Dr. James Spencer. And we’re going to touch on all these things I’ve just broached and more today here on Stand in the Gap today. But with that, welcome to the program right now, Dr. James Spencer.
James Spencer: Yeah, thanks for having me. Again, appreciate
Sam Rohrer: Being here. It’s great to have you back. James, can you share just a bit about this event that’s coming up? I know I think there are three panels that are going to be focused on three key themes. Question to you, why is this event being done and for instance, in what panel are you going to be participating?
James Spencer: Yeah, so my understanding is the events being done to address a lot of the issues that evangelicals might have around the election. And I also think to sort of motivate people to go to the polls, which I assume we’ll talk about a little bit later as far as the panels go, they’re going to be looking at some of the history and impact of evangelicals and particularly the religious right on US politics. And they’re going to kind of take the church’s pulse on that. Why is this election important? Why is it maybe more important than other elections and what happens if we decide to vote to not vote? Those kind of conversations. There’s also one on religious liberty in America. There will be a time to really talk through that. I think they’re also going to have some other discussions on things like immigration, border security, some of the hot button issues that are really fairly big in the political spectrum. Now the panel I’m actually serving on is going to be talking about Christian nationalism and what they’re calling the Trump factor. What happens if Trump gets in as the second term? What might that look like? What are the implications for Christians and for America? And so that’s the panel I’ll be talking on.
Sam Rohrer: Alright, that’s excellent. A couple minutes left here. One of the comments from one of the promoters or organizer, whatever, he said this, he said The goal of this event is to catalyze the Christian’s commitment to get to the ballot box and to do their civic duty, to awaken people to what’s at stake, to think practically and seriously about the future of our nation. We need to get involved in the discussion rather than getting away from it and all that. A lot of what you just said, but my is this engaging in discussion is generally good, but at this time in our nation’s history with all that’s facing us is a discussion the best thing or some other thing, the best thing, and if a discussion is important, what discussion?
James Spencer: Yeah, so I’ll say a couple things. Number one, I think when we think about civic duty, civic duty is always subjugated or sits underneath our duty as Christians, we don’t actually belong to the society. Our citizenship is in heaven and we are serving our Lord there. And so our job is to point to and glorify God. And so to me that doesn’t necessitate voting. And so as we’re looking to mobilize Christians to go to the polls, what I would say is that that’s a matter of conscience. If Christians feel like they can go to the polls and vote and that’s an act that glorifies God, I say all for it. But I would say also that if Christians feel like they need to abstain and that goes with their conscience, I would absolutely advocate them doing that. I think the second thing is to frame voting as a discussion is challenging.
James Spencer: I don’t really see voting as a discussion. I think we can talk about the issues prior to the vote, but a vote is inherently a yes no proposition. You’re voting for one candidate, you’re not voting for the other. And so there isn’t really a whole lot of discussion there to be had to me where we’re looking at this and we’re thinking about what is the discussion we actually need to be having as the church. I would say it’s this. I believe that discipleship opens up opportunities for us to build God’s kingdom beyond anything we could ever ask or think. That is the conversation the church always needs to be happening no matter what we’re talking about. And so as we’re talking about politics, what I would say is we’re talking about discipleship and how it is that the church goes about making decisions that imitate Christ in the political realm.
Sam Rohrer: All right. Dr. James Spencer is with me, president of DL Moody Center and useful to God when going to come back, we’re going to go a little bit deeper into that. Some comments were made there that are perhaps different than some we’ve heard he will explain, asking to unravel and talk about some of these things in addition to a book that he has written entitled Serpents and Doves. Well, if you’re just joining me today, I’ve engaged, well, a relevant theme and whenever you go down this road, there’s always controversy and there’s thought provoking but have entitled it as this politics pews passion and principles because they’re all involved. And my special guest is Dr. James Spencer. He’s currently serving as the president of the DL Moody Center and heads up president of another group called Useful to God, useful to god.com. There’s a website there that you can go for more information.
Sam Rohrer: But James, you talked a little bit about that event coming up the end of, well, August 27th this month here in Texas, a lot of well-known individuals from different organizations are going to be there. You’re going to be participating and they’re going to be dealing with the kind of questions that people have on a broader scale of politics, political involvement. One of the things we’re going to talk about the history of Evangelicalism and the religious right as it kind of came into its being back in the eighties and that timeframe and became very politically active. A whole lot of things we’re going to discussed, but you’ve also written a book and that book you’ve entitled Serpents and Doves, Christians Politics and The Art of Bearing Witness, and you just talked about that just a little bit in the last segment, disciples bearing witness. Now you deal with a lot of essential questions and we’re going to deal with some of those here today, but better just to get the book and read it. But here’s the start. First start here. Why did you write the book and from your perspective, what problem or problems were you trying to address by the writing of the book?
James Spencer: Yeah, I was prompted to write the book by a couple of incidents. I was doing some research on American civil religion and ran across Robert Bella’s work on American civil religion. And he has a line in one of his articles that I’ll paraphrase here, but basically he says that American civil religion was never against the church. It was never what he calls anti clerical, but instead what it did it borrowed from Christianity so that everyday Americans, including Christians wouldn’t really be able to tell the difference between American civil religion and Christianity. That was the first time that I felt sort of a disquiet in my soul that there was something wrong here. I think that when we have something that’s being called civil religion that is difficult to distinguish from Christianity and what the church actually does and who the church actually worshiped, we’ve got a problem.
James Spencer: I think the second incident that really prompted me ultimately to write the book, I heard an interview with Eric Trump on a, I believe it was a North Dakota radio program where he talks about he uses the language of his father Donald Trump, saving Christianity in America. And while that may seem like sort of a throwaway comment, may I think it was not intended to be something that borrowed religious language or something like that. What I saw in the comment was that the church had really very much potentially at least become dependent on the government for its wellbeing and that there were some people who were claiming that they were sustaining the church when it’s really Christ who sustains the church. And so it was those two things that really prompted me to go forward and do all the research that I did to write the book and try to unravel and make a clear distinction between the church and our nation.
Sam Rohrer: Boy, we could go much further. So let’s just jump right into the next part. In the book, you say this, that while it may be easy for Christian voters to get discouraged by the outcomes of many elections, it’s important to remember who is really in control. And I think that’s a very true statement because most people would say, yeah, we’ve done everything we can or whatever, and look who we got the last election or whatever as an example. So for trusting believers, they would understand this principle. It’s important to remember who is really in control. That part of what you said, true believers would understand it. However, here’s my question. Would you explain this a bit further what you mean by this and why it’s important to emphasize this? Again, it’s not just some simple statement you’ve made there, but that’s significant.
James Spencer: So I would go to something like a Jeremiah seven and Jeremiah seven, the false prophets are pointing at the temple and they’re telling the Israelite people that everything they’re doing is okay because the temple is still standing. So they’re saying basically that as long as the temple is standing, God is with them and authorizing all of their behavior. And the way I read that passage, and there’s a lot more we could say about that, but basically the Israelite people, the Judean at that point, the people of Judah were trying to pull God in to support their own agendas. They wanted to live their life the way they wanted to live it and they wanted to make sure that God was authorizing that lifestyle. That’s not really the way God works. God tells us how to live, we don’t tell God how we’re going to live.
James Spencer: And so I think that as we are going through these elections and we’re trying to make good choices, what we have to recognize is that when the outcome we anticipated or the outcome that we wanted doesn’t occur that we are in the wrong. We are the ones who read the tea leaves in the wrong way. We are the ones who didn’t see what, we didn’t anticipate what God was doing in the world and we have to deal with that disappointment. But the reality is that what God wanted to happen happened, that there’s nothing that’s surprising to God, that there’s nothing that’s outside of his control. And so it’s always us adjusting to God. In part that means that when an outcome of election happens that we didn’t want, we’re adjusting to God on that. We’re trying to say, wow, I wouldn’t have guessed God would ever do this, but look what he’s done. We should be in the position to be curious and interested in what it is that God is doing so that we can participate with him in all that he’s doing as opposed to trying to pull him over and get him behind our agendas. Our agendas are almost always misdirected. And so what we’re always seeking to do is realign our misdirected agendas so that they align with what God is doing in the world.
Sam Rohrer: I’ve often used this phrase, do it regularly is that every day a true believer needs to recalibrate their thinking according to God’s standards. Far too often, just like you said to Israelites, they would do that and they would say, as long as we have our freedom, the temple is there. That means that God is pleased with what we’re doing. But that wasn’t true at all. God was being very patient with them, but he was trying to call them back, but they were not recalibrating their thinking with what God’s standards were. And it’s kind of like the old phrase, it’s not so much that God is on our side, the question is are we on God’s side? And so that’s very deep and significant. Again, go much deeper, but lemme go to another question here because you make this statement, it kind of ties into it, but you say this quote as such, the goal of this book, your book Serpents and Doves, the goal of this book is not to discourage political participation but to situate it Now. I thought that was interesting. Would you explain what you mean by situating political participation?
James Spencer: Sure. I think that we occupy a number of positions in our lives just as a for instance, I’m the leader of an organization. I’m a husband, I’m a father, I’m a son. And so all these are different positions that I occupy in my life. And so there is a way for me to be a horrible father. There’s a way for me just to decide that this is what I’m, this is what me being a father is going to look like. I’m going to completely ignore what God is doing and I’m going to just be the sort of father that I discern I should be. But the reality is that that needs to be nested within, it needs to be immersed within, it needs to be an expression of my discipleship. Being a father is just a specialized act of discipleship. Being a husband is a specialized act of discipleship.
James Spencer: And I think in the same way, that’s what I mean by situating it. We’re putting it within the broadest category possible. And I think the broadest category possible is we are disciples of Jesus Christ and if we are disciples of Jesus Christ, none of these areas that we participate in, whether it’s politics, whether it’s family, whether it’s business, what have you, none of those escape our discipleship. They’re all immersed within it. And so we need to situate our political participation within our discipleship and make sure that as we’re participating politically, we are serving that discipleship, that it looks like discipleship, that we are imitating Christ in our political participation. We’re not just trying to get people elected. We’re not just trying to advance an agenda. We are actually taking those candidates and that agenda and we’re saying these need to be submitted to our broader discipleship agenda, which I often phrase it as to point to and glorify the triune God. That is our role. And if we are pointing to and glorifying the trying God in all that we do, then we have to now make our political participation decisions based on the basic question, is this decision going to detract from or add to God’s glory?
Sam Rohrer: See, that’s great. I could go much further on that. I would put that as I have looked at things for a long time, I go to Romans 13, James, where it says, God ordained authority literally means he ranked it. And the things that you’d said there, father, pastor, teacher, whatever other things that you’ve mentioned are all positions of authority. Ladies and gentlemen, when God says he established authority, everything is under him. And as a disciple, we wear a lot of different hats. Father, grandfather, mother, grandmother, pastor, politician, employer, all positions of authority properly work together, which is what we do and teach as disciples. All of these things relate. James, that’s exactly what you are describing. That was wonderful. Ladies and gentlemen, St we’ll be back in just a moment. If you’re just joining us, we’re midway in the program right now. My theme politics, pews passion and principles, navigating the 2024 elections and beyond, because we’re talking about that theme of political engagement includes passion, but it must be governed by biblical principles.
Sam Rohrer: All of these things kind of wrapped up into it. My special guest, Dr. James Spencer, president of DL Moody Center and useful to God and the website, you can go for more information about him and all those related to that useful to god.com. He’s also written a book that we’re just talking about here briefly, serpents and doves. And I want to go on to a little bit because James, you deal with a lot of critical questions and we do not have even remotely enough time to deal with the questions or to go in depth on the kinds of things we’ve already talked about. You could spend hours on underlying these things because there’s historical components to it. There are theological definitely components to it. As you talked about disciples in the last part, we are to make disciples and as a true believer that disciple means we have to understand all of God’s word and be operating in every capacity in which we were to be a citizen.
Sam Rohrer: If we were in office, I was for a while minister of God in or pastor in a pulpit, minister of God or a father or a grandfather or a mother or a grandmother or employer. All of these positions of authority that God has established all work their part in God’s greater plan of redemption. And we have to be always recalibrating ourselves to that which you talked about in the last segment. I thought so clearly now, one of the questions that I found over my 20 years in the public sphere surrounds the understanding of exactly what is the Christian’s civic duty to government. And again, ladies and gentlemen, just a thought here, but we’re not going to be able to exploit it fully. But for most people, if you were to say ask them, what is our obligation to civil government? Well, you’d probably go to one place we’re told to honor the king.
Sam Rohrer: Second is pray for all of those in authority that we would lead a quiet and peaceable life. That’s what most would say. And those are true, and they’re true in any age and they’re true under any scenario or any type of government. But the matter of voting and political participation is something rather unique to America and the West generally. And here’s the first question I’d like to pose to you and that is this. Some believe that voting is a sacred duty. Others would say that voting is a civic privilege. Some would say it makes all the difference in the world how you consider it. Others would say, well, there’s no real difference. So from a biblical perspective, I’m going to ask you this. Is voting and political participation a sacred duty or is voting and political participation a civic privilege? And as you’ve studied scripture and considered things, does it make any difference?
James Spencer: I think it makes a huge difference. What I would say is that Christians are, you cited Romans 13 in the last segment, so I’ll go back there. What we see in Romans 13 is that God has established governing authorities and that our honoring of those governing authorities are sitting underneath. Their authority is conditioned on the fact that we are sitting under the authority of God. And so if we think about it, God has all the authority, Christ said at the beginning of the great commission, all authority and heaven and earth has been given to me. He has all the authority. Some of that authority and a segment of that authority has been delegated to governing authorities here on earth roughly analogous to the state. And so as we are participating in our nation, we need to be practicing our faith so that we are first of all loyal to God and second of all, in accordance with the laws and standards of the state.
James Spencer: Now, when those two contradict, we always opt to follow God. God is the ultimate authority. And so sometimes the nations are going to try to take us a different way. I say that to say this, in our nation what we’ve been given is the privilege or the freedom to choose our leaders, to choose our representatives. And so as a freedom, this is not a sacred duty. It’s a freedom we’ve been given by the authorities who are in charge. Our primary responsibility is still to God, it’s still to his authority. And so understanding voting as a sacred duty I think crosses an interesting line. It suggests that God is asking us to vote. God is asking us to choose our leaders. But I think that that’s a problem because even as we choose, we know that God appoints, God always appoints leaders. So here would be the simplified answer to what I would say.
James Spencer: I think we need to frame voting as a freedom, as a civic privilege, and as such, we need to understand those freedoms. Like the Bible helps us understand other freedoms. We see Paul talk about this often where he sets aside rights and freedoms in order to advance the gospel. He sets aside rights and freedoms in order to reach the lost or to hold the body of Christ together. That’s how we need to understand voting. It’s a right, it’s a privilege, it’s a freedom. It, it’s to me, when we vote, we need to make sure that this vote that I’m doing, this advocacy that I’m putting out there for a particular candidate, one or another, especially as these things have become more public, we need to make sure that the vote we’re casting is a vote that builds up the body of Christ is a vote that does not hinder people from coming to Christ or hinder the advancement of the gospel. This is how I think we’re taught to understand freedoms in the New Testament. Our freedoms are not to be used in order to serve our own interests. They’re to be used in order to advance the kingdom of God and to serve others.
Sam Rohrer: Okay, now let me follow up on that. And again, you and I have not gone this deep into this. This is a lot of things you cover in your book, but from a Christian’s perspective, you are not making the case for why a believer should not vote. Well, lemme just ask you this. You’re not saying that a Christian should not vote, are you or are you saying that there should be a higher consideration perhaps when one determines that, build that out a little bit? I don’t want people to walk away confused.
James Spencer: Yeah, I am not, and I say this multiple times in the book, I’m not against political participation. I’m not suggesting that Christians should isolate themselves from the political process, that they shouldn’t vote any of that. What I am saying is that we need to frame this in terms of and really, really situated within our broader purpose as the church. And the broader purpose as the church is not to restrain evil. It is not to bear the sword. That’s the government’s job. And there’s a clear distinction between the church and the state and scripture. And so the church has to remain the church. And we have to be cognizant that even as the state gives us these different freedoms to choose our representatives and to choose our leaders, that the exercise of those freedoms now has to go through a discernment process. And we have to ask ourselves in this context, is it appropriate for me to do this?
James Spencer: Is this commensurate with advancing the gospel or is this me just defaulting to a sort of a national norm or convention? And I say it like that just to say this, I think that when we look at Paul, he is giving away his rights in order to advance the gospel. That’s the orientation we should have. Now, Paul talks about in his letters that many of the other people who are serving God haven’t given up those rights. And so what it leads me to believe is that this is a matter of individual discernment and that Christians should not feel cajoled or coerced into feeling like they have to do these things. What they should be discerning is can I vote in good conscience? Can I vote for a particular candidate in good conscience? And in doing so, whether I support a particular candidate’s positions or not, whether I decide to vote or not, am I actually advancing the kingdom of God? Am I actually building up the body of Christ? Am I precluding people from really hearing and accepting the gospel that might otherwise do so? I think we have to start from a different place when we’re reckoning our political participation as opposed to precluding it all together.
Sam Rohrer: Okay, let me ask you this question here then, because in regard to that, to be a citizen is one thing. Whatever nation, whatever era a person has lived at the time of the Apostle Paul or whatever, to be a Christian citizen is to be a better citizen regardless of the nation in which that person would live. And we understand that that’s the case, but we are in a representative republic. We have therefore duties and responsibilities, privileges, yes. As a citizen, a Christian citizen to exercise influence. One of those is a vote. It’s not the only way by any means, but it is a clear one that if we do not exercise it, we’re not being a responsible citizen. So comment on that a little bit and we run out of time. We’ll have to come back to the next segment.
James Spencer: Yeah. So what I would say is I’m not sure that’s the case. I think that there are ways for us to participate in the political process that actually distract from us giving glory to God. And the narrative that I normally point to give some illustration of this is Genesis 14, which people probably aren’t familiar with. Abram comes back from saving a lot, and the king of Sodom Abram’s got all these spoils. The king of Sodom says, Abram, keep all these possessions. Just give me the people back and Abram declines to take the spoils of war.
Sam Rohrer: Alright, James, just hold it right there. We’re out of time when we come back ladies and gentlemen, we will complete that thought and we’ll move into the conclusion of this program, but I want you to build that out when we come back in just a moment. Alright, James, you were about to fully explain that interaction with Abraham and King of Sodom there. Go ahead and build that out if you don’t mind again and apply that.
James Spencer: Yeah, so what I love about this story is Abram declined the king of Sodom offer to give him all the possessions. And he says that he’s doing so because he does not want the king of Sodom to be able to claim that he has made Abram rich. And so I think what is that? There is a way for us to act in which other people than God can claim the glory. We often think in terms of moral standards and I think that’s actually really appropriate. I don’t want to suggest that moral standards are wrong or that we shouldn’t think along moral lines. At the same time, we need to be looking though at what is glorifying to God. And some of these things that we are doing right now I would say are leaning very closely to what we’re warned against or what the Israelites are warned against.
James Spencer: And Isaiah 36, 6 where it talks about trusting in the broken reed of Egypt. And when we do that, our hand is going to be pierced because leaning on that broken reed, ultimately that read is going to break and it’s going to shove through our hand. And I just think that Christians need to take a step back, recognize that voting is a freedom in this context where all of our decisions are fairly open to the public, the results, the data, the research they show where evangelicals are voting. We need to really take stock and think through how it is that casting a vote is going to be glorifying to God or detract from that glory. I’m not giving people an instruction on whether or not to vote. What I’m trying to do is help them reframe the question so that they can ask them more theologically.
James Spencer: Because at the end of the day, I do not believe that the next election is as important as some people would claim. What I would say is that the witness of the church is far more crucial to America’s future is far more crucial to getting people saved than whoever ends up being in office. And that’s where I want Christians to be focusing. What is our testimony to the world? How is it that we bear witness to Jesus Christ? Not how do we get someone in who can support our conservative values? That’s the distinction that I want to make and that’s what I want Christians to be thinking through and making their decisions through that grid. How is it that we as a group of people committed to Christ being his disciples? Being the body of Christ can proclaim the gospel to a lost nation because some of the morals that the election rides on, some of the conservative issues that the election rides on might make America appear less lost, but without Christ, I would tell you they’re still as lost as anyone else. We are the only people who can proclaim Jesus’s Lord. And we need to be attending to that more than we’re attending to the politics.
Sam Rohrer: Alright, and let’s follow up in that because I want to tie this together here as well and get your thoughts on it. Scripture refers to believers as being salt and light. We talk a lot here about if believers actually live out their life as disciples of Christ. Christ disciples live holy lives, obedient in their execution of their duties as father and mother and children and preach the whole counsel of God and put their faith and trust in the authority of scripture. If those things are done regardless of the type of government, wherever age, there would be days of Paul or the days of now, they will impact the culture. Now you do make a statement. I think something about, I don’t know what it’s, I want to quote up, but something about impacting the culture. I don’t have it right here in front of me, but how does then a Christian give witness as you’re talking about our primary purpose is just opening our mouth and sharing the gospel with our neighbor, which has got to be some. What is it and how would you speak to those who are listening right now saying, alright, believer recalibrate, let’s put ourselves in alignment with what God lays down first and then extend it out. How does a true believer right now become the most effective witness and therefore impact our culture for Christ?
James Spencer: Yeah, the way I’ve been thinking about it a lot is number one is we’re thinking about politics, particularly in this election coming up specifically, what I would say is all of us can distinguish between someone doing a cannonball into a pool and someone being baptized. One event is fairly commonplace. Kids do it all the time at public pools. The other one is a sacred event. It’s got an efficient, it’s got words that are spoken. It’s a commitment that’s being made. The other is just jumping into a pool. We need to make sure that we’re making that sort of distinction with our candidates, with our political participation, our candidates roll over every four years, especially in the presidential realm. They roll over every four years. So this is a fairly commonplace event. We do this every four years. We elect a new president every four years.
James Spencer: And so it isn’t a sacred event, it’s just part of our warp and woof as members of the United States. And so we do this over and over and over again. Is it important? Yes, I don’t want to trivialize it, but at the same time it’s a cannonball, it’s not baptism. And so we’ve got to be able and learn to look at the world and distinguish what is a cannonball into a pool and what is a baptism, what Christians live in the world of baptism, we are baptized into Christ, we see things as sacred and we need to distinguish between the sacred and the profane. And I just think that the governmental elections, they’re not trivial, they’re important, but we need to make sure that we’re not giving them a significance that they don’t actually have, that God would not give them. And so as we’re looking at this, I think two things.
James Spencer: Number one, let’s make sure that we’re not seeing one political candidate or another becoming the symbol of our victory. The symbol of our victory is Jesus Christ. There is no other symbol. It is a complete and total victory in Jesus Christ. So let’s make sure we’re not seeing that as a symbol of our victory. I would say number two, let’s make sure that as we’re voting, as we’re thinking about these matters, that we’re not placing our hope too strongly in one candidate or another. There’s no one who’s going to be able to fix our nation. Our nation is going to be broken, like the rest of the world is broken. And so our responsibility is not to fix it. Our responsibility is to live faithfully within it. And we have to reckon our political participation around those lines. I think the last thing I would just say is on a practical level, let’s make sure that we leave room within the Christian community for believers to disagree about which candidates should go into office.
James Spencer: I think that there are going to be very intelligent, well-meaning Christians who are faithful and desire to serve Jesus Christ, who are going to vote different ways. And as they do that, neither choice is some sort of moral evil that we need to condemn. It’s a choice. And at the end of the day, some people will be on the right side of that. Some people will be on the wrong side of that. Either way, we need to recognize that there’s something that God is doing in our nation that we don’t understand that this equation that we often give of America being blessed and so God is behind it, is way too simple. We need to just recognize that oftentimes even the strongest reform movements are not going to result in the outcomes that we want. And I would point to Josiah with that. He reforms Israel, but God tells him that he’s not going to save Judah because of that.
Sam Rohrer: Alright, and James, we’re just out of time, ladies and gentlemen. Dr. James Spencer, my guest today, useful to god.com, the place to go. And as we say so often fear God, keep his commandments live, holy trust in him. Make every thought at every decision, bring it captive to the word of God. All of us will give an account for that. Let us do that and God will be honored without doubt.
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