Hard to Believe: Understanding the Heart of An Atheist

Hard to Believe: Understanding the Heart of An Atheist

Nov. 12, 2024

Host: Dr. Jamie Mitchell

Guest: Jana Harmon

Note: This transcript is taken from a Stand in the Gap Today program aired on 11/12/24. To listen to the podcast, click HERE.

Disclaimer: While reasonable efforts have been made to provide an accurate transcription, the following is a representation of a mechanical transcription and as such, may not be a word for word transcript. Please listen to the audio version for any questions concerning the following dialogue.

Jamie Mitchell:  Well, welcome again to Stand In the Gap Today. I’m your host, Jamie Mitchell, director of Church Culture at the American Pastors Network. There are programs that I just can’t wait to host. I enjoy the topic. Other programs I face with some fear and some concern mostly because of my lack of understanding. Today’s program, I have kind of a mixed feeling. On one side, I’m excited about learning more about our topic that we’ll get to in a moment. Yet on the other side, I dread it realizing that there are many people today whom we will be discussing that are living in a realm of hopelessness. Today’s topic is atheism. Webster’s defined an atheist as a person who disbelieves or lack belief in the existence of God. Atheists do not believe God is just to be clear and agnostic is someone who doesn’t believe it’s possible to know for sure that a God exists.

Jamie Mitchell:  It’s possible to be both and an agnostic atheist doesn’t believe, but also doesn’t think he could ever know whether God exists. Today I want to focus our attention on atheism. In a 2023 poll by the Pew Research Center, it found that 4% of Americans in the United States, self-identify as atheists. But I think the numbers higher. Even more alarming is how many people who have grown up in evangelical Christianity have moved into a realm of atheism, and today’s guest can help us. Jana Harmon is a senior fellow at the CS Lewis Institute. She is an author of a book Atheist Finding God Unlikely Stories of Conversion to Christianity in the Contemporary West. She’s a host of a podcast skeptic and she knows about atheism and about this important topic and can help us today kind of navigate this very difficult but important subject for today’s world. Jana, welcome to Stand in the Gap.

Jana Harmon:     Jamie, it’s so great to be with you today.

Jamie Mitchell:  Jana, you’ve done some extensive research on atheism and you have encountered a number of atheists along your journey. I’m interested to know how it is that a person arrives at that point where they do not believe there is a God. Are there contributing factors that you’ve discovered as you’ve interacted with atheists?

Jana Harmon:     That’s a really great question. It was one of the first things that I wanted to figure out is why atheists embrace atheism. Why would they choose a godless worldview? And when you talk with an atheist and you ask them, why don’t you believe they’ll often give an intellectual answer, I don’t believe because it’s not true. Who would believe that I’m too rational or too reasonable, too intelligent for that kind of thing. But when you step back and you look at all the reasons why someone might dismiss as any kind of belief, I mean we all embrace our beliefs for different kinds of reasons. The people that we trust, the ideas that they hold, the relationships that we have, our experiences, our feelings, which stories sound most reasonable to us based upon what we even find attractive. So when it comes to the atheist, yes, there are reasons, there are matters of the head.

Jana Harmon:     I guess you could say that they don’t believe it. They don’t think that science and faith can go together. They don’t think that intellectual people can believe it. Sometimes they just don’t think it’s relevant. Oftentimes, they step into a world and a life where it’s just a presumed point of view. They’ve never really questioned it. It’s who the people around them believe. It’s what the authorities in their lives believe. The educated people, sometimes they just don’t think that they need it. It’s not relevant. They’re happy on their own. They don’t need anyone making moral choices for them. They don’t need guidance. Again, they perceive themselves as strong individuals, not weak like religious or superstitious people who need a crutch. Sometimes atheists have had it’s a matter of the heart and that they’ve been hurt in some way, that they’ve had bad experiences in their lives and they can’t imagine that there could be a God who exists and allows this or that to happen in their lives or in the lives of someone they love or even in the world.

Jana Harmon:     They just don’t understand that the problem of suffering evil is real. There’s also culturally speaking, a very negative hue over Christians and Christianity hypocrisy. We see writ large over the news and Twitter feeds and so that it becomes generalized to the fullness of faith. And sometimes it’s just not only negative exposure, but sometimes there’s just a lack of exposure to someone who’s genuinely a Christian that they haven’t really experienced or talked with someone who is a real authentic follower of Christ. And so they believe all these negative stereotypes and we are classified, siloed and othered, I guess are the terms in that. Who would want to be like them? I don’t want to associate with them. And so we see that a lot that tribalism in politics or whatever, but there are these presumptions that are made about Christians and Christianity that they just don’t want a part of it. But so it really, Jamie, it’s a mixed bag and every story is different and every person and their experience is different. So as much as I would like to say here are cut and dry, the reasons why someone doesn’t believe, you’d have to actually talk with that person to figure it out.

Jamie Mitchell:  Jana, we have about a minute. How did you get so interested in understanding atheists?

Jana Harmon:     When I got a master’s degree in Christian apologetics, and it was clear to me the comprehensive case, the evidential case for the Christian world view was very strong over any other worldview, but in the marketplace of ideas and in real life, it seemed that no matter what the evidence was, that atheists would dismiss it out of hand without serious consideration. So based upon that, my big question was what would it take for an atheist to become a Christian? I wanted to take a very holistic look at why people rejected God. What would it take for them to become open to another perspective and what would bring them on towards conversion? I was just so curious about it honestly.

Jamie Mitchell:  Wow. You think about Darwin and his anti God views concerning creation, evolution that came out of the death of a sister, I think in his personal story. And so friends, for the most part, you and I have lived in worlds where we assume that there is a God, that he is creator and king of the universe, sustainer of life, sovereign over all. And so we hear things like this that there are those who completely deny God’s existence. It’s difficult for us, yet you may be living with a future atheist even in your own home. When we return, we will compare and contrast an atheist and a believer’s worldview. Today our topic is this hard to believe understanding the heart of an atheist here and stand in the gap today. Well, welcome back to today’s program, our topic today, hard to believe Understanding the heart of an atheist.

Jamie Mitchell:  Jana Harmon has authored a book, Atheist Finding God. She also hosts a podcast on all the platforms known as Ex Skeptic and encourage you to check that out. The book is a great book. I have it sitting here right in front of me. Great title, and certainly the hope and prayer of all of us listening is that atheists would find God. Jana. There’s a section in your book where you discuss the conflicts of worldviews here at Stand on the Gap. We often discuss biblical worldviews, and again, one of the dangers that we as Christians find ourselves is assuming that everybody is like us and that’s not true. Help us today. Would you, let’s start with the atheist. How would you describe their worldview? What are some of the tenants they hold to

Jana Harmon:     Jamie? Yes, this is a really good and clarifying question. I think a lot of times even atheists don’t understand what they believe just as there are many nominal Christians in the world. There are a lot of nominal atheists who presume the worldview just because it sounds good if it’s what they want, but they haven’t really thought through it. So I really appreciate this moment that we’re going to talk about this because when you ask them an atheist what they believe and what they believe about God, they’ll just say oftentimes these days they don’t say, I don’t believe God exists because that’s a positive statement of reality. It’s a claim that they have to provide evidence for, and that’s really hard to do. So what you’ll hear atheists say these days is, I lack a belief in God. And by saying that just like you lack of belief in say, the Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus, you don’t have to prove that because that’s proving a negative.

Jana Harmon:     So that’s just kind of silly, and so they write off God as if they don’t have to explain anything. But the reality is when you say no to God, you’re saying yes to a lot of other things. You’re saying, okay, God doesn’t exist. You’re saying nothing supernatural exists, at least in the purest kind of naturalistic form of atheism here. We’re not talking about Buddhism or other kind forms. We’re talking about the classical form of atheism. You’re saying nothing supernatural exists, only nature exists and can be explained by natural forces and causes, and that’s all there is. The nature is all there is. It’s just a material substance. We are material beings that this world is moving along in this determined kind of cause and effect like dominoes falling like a mechanical universe. We are cogs in a wheel. The universe is just moving along there.

Jana Harmon:     There’s no way that anything ought to be or moving along a time or a progression towards something or another. Things just are. They just exist. There’s no inherent meaning or purpose or value. There’s nothing inherently good or evil. We even as human beings are in the same way, this kind of mechanical being just responding to our environment through instincts and need for survival. There’s nothing special inherently valuable in us as human beings. No real rights. There’s no real design or purpose for things. There’s no real right or wrong, Eric Axa says it this way, if matter is all there is, then nothing matters and that includes us. It’s a very stark way of looking at life. There’s no hope. There’s no real justice, no hope for the future. It leads to what Greg Coco calls. Nothing is or nihilism. There’s no there. And I think a lot of atheists haven’t really thought that through.

Jana Harmon:     They don’t think about the implications of their beliefs without God. They just think they can uncheck the box and live whatever way they want. But the reality is it’s really unlivable in a sense that atheism goes against our basic intuitions about who we are, that we feel as human beings, that we are exceptional and valuable. It goes against our basic experiences. We feel as if we’re choosing literally making our own choices. But it was interesting. One of the former atheists I interviewed, it was a real point of awakening for him when he said, I realize that I’m not thinking, I’m not acting. I’m just a Coke can fizzing that you’re just moving along in this natural world doing natural things, but you’re really not in control of any of it. Or another atheist said, I realized that I was making truth claims all day long, but then saying there is no such thing as truth. There’s a real cognitive dissonance that can come about when someone actually takes a look at the underbelly of their own atheism and realize that it’s a really stark, horrible, difficult way to live.

Jamie Mitchell:  Jana, when you’re watching a movie and part of the plot of the movie is a train or a car or a truck that the brakes aren’t working, the accelerator is stuck, it’s just traversing down a road or down a track and everything is out of control and you’re just waiting for the train to jump the tracks or the truck to go off the cliff. That in many respects, as cold and stark as that may sound, that comes down to a lot of times how atheists believe about the world, about life, about all of their surroundings. Because if there isn’t a God who is in control, then there’s nothing in control and everything is out of control. Jana, in contrast, you also understand the Christian or biblical worldview. What concerning our beliefs, our worldview, what is most in conflict with the atheist or really maybe in a positive way, what’s the most important for a believer to really understand when interacting with an atheist?

Jana Harmon:     I think when interacting with an atheist, it’s important. Of course, we believe that we are made in the image of God because God exists. He’s superintendent and superintendents, everything. He created everyone. And like as Lewis said, there’s no mere mortals. I think one of the most important things is that we see others as maid in his image, as beautiful as someone who is also looking for the same things we are. I have one atheist, former atheist said, oftentimes will look at an atheist and will say, oh, they’re just a propositional argument to be defeated because that’s all they bring our arguments. But he said, really, everyone in their own humanity is looking to make sense of the world. They have their own longings that are unsatisfied. And what we have as Christians is so much better because all of reality not only declares the reality of God, but it also the existence of God and who we are in Christ.

Jana Harmon:     It helps us make sense of ourselves. It helps us make sense of the world because God again made the world with created purpose and design for us. For the supreme penultimate part of his creation, he created a special loved beloved with a mind, with a soul and a spirit with rationality and intelligence. He made us with a conscience. He put the moral law in our hearts so that we could make sense of what’s right and wrong, good and evil. He gave us a freedom to choose him. He gave us, we’re living in this time. People are desperate for meaning. We’re living in a meaning crisis. There’s a real existential crisis going on. And when I look at others, I think we should all have this sense of compassion because everyone is looking for identity, right? I mean, look at all the different ways that people are identifying themselves because they have cut themselves off from their author and maker and they’re trying to find sense, make sense of their lives and define They are when they are cut off from the source and so they’re lost and anxious and depressed, and they’re oftentimes trying to find their own way, but yet still rejecting God.

Jana Harmon:     It’s a real, I think we should look at others with compassion. Really, you’re talking about the heart of the ages. I think so many are just depressed and confused and they don’t know what they don’t know unless someone comes and helps them and shows them a better way.

Jamie Mitchell:  Jana, as you’ve been talking and as I was reading your book and considering this subject, we live in a world of sin. We live in depravity. We know that there’s evil in the world. We know that there’s suffering the world, but when you take God out of the equation of that, then the ultimate destination is hopelessness. It’s basically that there is no hope that my life will be terrible and have all kinds of terrible consequences. There is no one that can rescue me or solve the problem. And therefore, as Eric Metaxas says, the only final place for an atheist to go is suicide to take their life because then there is no reason to live because there is no God who can rescue us. Friends, the first step in trying to reach anyone who is not a believer in Christ is not to force our ideas and beliefs down their throat.

Jamie Mitchell:  Wisdom tells us that we need to assess and understand where they’re coming from and start where they’re at when we return. What is the path for conversion for an atheist? We’re talking about atheism today here at Stand in the Gap today, our topic today, hard to believe, understanding the heart of the atheist. Jenna Harmon is our guest. She serves as a senior fellow with the CS Lewis Institute. Jana, before we go any further, could you share about the institute, what is it that you do and how are you following in the footsteps of our great hero of the faith CS Lewis, in attempts to see faith ignite in the hearts of the unbelieving world,

Jana Harmon:     As I am sure your audience knows, CS Lewis was an extraordinary man of God. He was a former atheist himself who came to see that the Christian story was not only the greatest story ever told, but it was true. And he became a devoted follower of Christ, helping others to understand the love truth of Christianity. So inspired by the life, the heart, the mind of CS Lewis, the CS Lewis Institute, developed a discipling ministry to come alongside churches to help grow and disciple church members, to grow Christians in their walk with Christ, to make them more effective ambassadors for Christ. Their keystone is really a fellows program, which is a one to two year discipling program where you read some wonderful curriculum alongside like-minded Christians who want to go deep and you meet once a month and you discuss these books and ideas and scripture, and you have a mentor who walks you through just to see how these ideas are reflecting in your own life.

Jana Harmon:     It’s not only concentrated on spiritual formation, but also a little bit of apologetics because again, they want you to become well able to live or articulate and defend the faith. And so yeah, I’ve been associated with CS Lewis Institute since 2008. My roles have changed, but again, I am a teaching fellow, but most recently, about four years ago, they asked me to host a podcast. And so it was just a very natural transition for me. In my doctoral work, I had interviewed 50 former atheists to hear their stories, and they were so fascinating to see why people rejected what allowed them to become open to the possibility of God and how the Lord really brought him to himself, that these stories were just too good to contain. And so I have had the amazing privilege of every other week bringing another story forward where a former atheist or skeptic talks about how they once lived as an atheist, why they embraced that view, how they viewed the Bible, Christians and Christianity, how the Lord again opened their heart. And then they give advice to those who are curious skeptics on potential steps forward in their walk if they’re curious about God. And they also give advice every episode to Christians on how they can best engage with skeptics and non-believers. It’s an amazing privilege. Honestly,

Jamie Mitchell:  The chapters in your book outlines complex steps of conversion of an atheist help our listeners today, they’re facing a relationship with an atheist, maybe it’s a family or a friend. What are some common things that occurs in the mind of the heart of an atheist as they be begin to believe in God’s existence and ultimately their journey towards finding Christ?

Jana Harmon:     For me, when I started talking with these former atheists, one of the most important questions or keys to figure out honestly, why they were such a resistant population that is two thirds of them said they would never leave atheism behind. And of course, we personally probably know people like that in our lives. They’re just so averse to anything of God or anything with regard to Christ or Christianity that we can’t imagine them ever coming to faith. But yet, a hundred percent of all these 50 people that I interviewed and then beyond are passionate followers of Christ. So my big question was the million dollar question was, okay, what does God do in your heart to move them in a different direction? And you can imagine that all of us in our lives, if you’re satisfied with the status quo, if things are going well in your life, you’re not likely to change.

Jana Harmon:     You’re not likely to be open towards another perspective. I mean, imagine what it would take for us to change our point of view. Your point of view. It would take a lot to change an entire worldview, and that’s what we’re often asking people to do When you come to God as we contrasted before, it’s an incredibly different way of thinking and living and experiencing life. So there has to typically be some kind of disruptor, disruptor of the status quo so that someone will be willing again to look in the direction of God. And a few of those are, one is that people live and steep in the worldview long enough, the atheistic, naturalistic, materialistic worldview long enough that they start to experience problems with that. What I mean by is that what I mean by that is they have some kind of internal longing. It’s not making sense, it’s not making sense of the world around me.

Jana Harmon:     Say someone is a scientist, a smart person, and those people I talked about earlier, their worldview is not explaining things in the way that they think that it should, whether it’s origin of universe, fine tuning of the universe, design and purpose, the information in the cell in terms of things out there. But there’s also an existential longing for people who live long enough. And like you mentioned before, there’s a hopelessness associated with this worldview. And so the emptiness or the meaninglessness becomes too much to where they think is there something more. And so they become willing to look outside. Sometimes it’s born of experiences that is sometimes people have a crisis point in their lives, some kind of unexpected health crisis or medical crisis or a divorce or a breakup or some kind of loss in their life and their worldview is not sufficient to help them in their, whatever they’re experiencing is not coming, is just not helping.

Jana Harmon:     And so they’re at this crisis point thinking, well, maybe I didn’t have all the answers. Maybe there is something else that I need to look at. And so crisis point can be something that helps move somebody in the other direction. Sometimes it’s just as simple as actually meeting a Christian, which again, we live in a very tribalistic world and an us kind of mentality. And so oftentimes, as I mentioned before, there’s such a negative hue over what faith is. The Bible is who Christians are, what Christianity is that when their lives after actually intersect with Christian, they have such low expectations and then they’re countered with say, an intelligent Christian who’s kind compassionate, who is totally not what they expected. It causes them to step back and think, well, maybe I was wrong about that. Maybe there is something more to offer, especially in crisis moments when Christians come in and rush in to care for somebody, for example, when their friends desert them in a moment of crisis.

Jana Harmon:     So are just, again, sometimes when people meet a Christian, then they seek out to disprove Christianity. We’ve certainly had those cases, right? Lee Strobel, certainly when his wife became a Christian, he set out to disprove it. Sometimes it’s then actually entering into Christianity in a serious way, and then they find there’s so much more there than they thought was possible evidence and rich writings and philosophy and science and all of these things. And they can start to see how really Christianity has a very comprehensive explanatory worldview that they didn’t think existed. And I would say the last thing that was what I call a catalyst towards openness was actually a spiritual experience. And I think that that surprised me during my research because you often hear of visions, dreams, encounters with Christ, things like that in maybe the Middle East. But I was hearing these encountering with Christ or calling out for Christ and experiencing something very otherworldly that. And in fact, in the stories that I’m hearing more and more, it feels like it is true that I’m hearing more of these kinds of stories where people stories are encountering something very different than merely the natural world.

Jamie Mitchell:  Jana, as I looked over your research, some of these things that you’ve just talked about, the spiritual, the personal, the experiential, some of these things are out of our control as believers, and we only have about a minute left, but I want to read a couple of these here. Some common things that they intellectually can bring forth the life and claims of Jesus Christ, evidence of the resurrection of Christ, the truth of the Bible, objective evidence of God, and that he does exist. These are things that believers can have ready as they interact. Some of the other things that you’re talking about obviously happen in the life of an atheist and they should be watching for. But as you’ve written here and it’s very, very helpful that there are some objective things to be prepared for that as we interact with atheists, they’re high on the percentages of why or what moved them.

Jamie Mitchell:  Now, friends, Hebrews six tells us that without faith it is impossible to please God. The problem is if you do not believe that there is a God to please, faith is not an issue. These are difficult and complex issues. They’re not impossible. When we finish up today’s program, I want to discuss how to interact with an atheist and even being able to confront them with the truth that we’ve been talking about here today. Come back in just a few moments as we finish up today’s stand in the gap today. Well, Jenna Harmon has been our guest today and we’ve tried to take a very large and challenging topic of atheism and put a face on it and encourage us on how to reach atheists with the gospel. Jenna, I’ve entitled this last segment. Communicating and caring for an atheist, how we speak with them and how we interact with them is equally important. Can you give us a quick list of recommendations for believers in Jesus to know and to commit to as they deal with the atheists in their lives?

Jana Harmon:     Yes, I would be happy to. It was interesting you mentioned before about the need to know, to give a reason for the hope that we have in Christ, and that’s incredibly important. And right prior to that, in one Peter it says, set apart in your heart Christ as Lord. And then it follows with presenting this information in gentleness and respect. So you can see a very holistic approach to when you’re talking with others about Christ. The first thing is that you’re actually presenting Christ and embody Christ to another person. That’s why it’s important to set apart in our hearts Christ the Lord, because if they see hypocrisy, if they see something that is off-putting, if it’s a tone, if it’s an attitude, if there’s an arrogance, they’re oftentimes going to be put off before you can actually give them the information that they may be actually looking for.

Jana Harmon:     So it’s really important to be true. Goodness, I’ve had so many former atheists say this, and their advice is just really be discipled in your own walk. And so that you’re approaching the other with sincerity, with depth, with understanding, with a heart of compassion. Again, not with arrogance, but that you want to be present in their lives. So oftentimes we’ll be impatient and we’ll say, well, I just told them I gave them the arguments or whatever. It was kind of one and done or we had this interaction, but I’m done. And that’s not the way. Again, that oftentimes belief change and heart change works. They need to be drawn, they to need to be drawn by the Lord, but give them something good and attractive that they want. Blaze Pascal says, our beliefs are not often based on proof, but what we find attractive. So the question is how do we make Christianity attractive and then make good men wish it were true, and then show them that it is because you want to give them a hunger for truth because they want to be able to see palpably an embodied living of Christ, and they want that.

Jana Harmon:     And so oftentimes, atheists won’t respond to our arguments or our evidence because they don’t have a will or a desire to want it. So we need to help open the door for that. And then when they come, be patient, be prayerful, be persevering, really engage and be prepared. As you were talking about Jamie, I think a lot of times they perceive Christians as inept, as uneducated, as unable to ask good questions. We presume we know what they believe and we just go and tell them what they believe and what we believe and why they should believe it. But as you said, it’s more of sitting down, it’s listening. It’s not presuming. It’s asking them to tell us your story, tell us their story, get to know them, get to know where the objections are, where their hurts are. I mean, if we come with an argument and they have had a really difficult experience in their lives, an argument is not going to solve emotional pain.

Jana Harmon:     So it is really important because their question is maybe where was God not how do we explain fine tuning of the universe? So it’s really important to get to know who the person is, find what their questions are, but be prepared enough to be able to converse about things. Because the beauty we talked about, the Christian worldview, the beauty of the Christian worldview is that we have evidence and everything is on our side in terms of making sense of all of reality. Reality out there in the world and science and philosophy. We have the best explanations for our own lives, the way that we feel ourselves, that we’re special and we can give dignity. So we have all of these wonderful things. And of course there’s the word, and even presenting the word to someone, a Bible, having them look at it, having read it, really encountering Christ for themselves because oftentimes there’s again, such a negative hue over what the Bible is and what it says, but they’ve never read it for themselves.

Jana Harmon:     So sometimes just even if they’re willing to say, Hey, have you ever read it for yourself? Take a look at Jesus. And they’re oftentimes just completely stunned by the depth, the intellectual rigor, the persons of character, the historical narrative, the grand story of redemption, the love that God has for his people, because at the end of the day, we all want to feel loved and known and valued and purposed, and that’s what Jesus offers. He offers all of that. And so we need to engage in a very, I guess, human way. Does that make sense?

Jamie Mitchell:  Yeah. Before time runs out, I got to get a question in here and you began to talk about it. I think one of the common mistakes that we tend to do when we encounter atheists is we think to ourselves, well, they will never believe the Bible. They don’t believe that God exists and therefore they throw out the Bible. But that’s a mistake, and I think you just touched on that. We have about a minute or so left, we should not back off of our belief that we believe that the Bible is God’s word. Is that correct?

Jana Harmon:     Oh, absolutely. What’s interesting about that statement that you just made, Jamie, is that there’s some intellectuals, like public intellectuals who are saying there’s something really special about Christianity. Tom Holland who wrote Dominion says, we need to keep Christianity weird. There’s something really good about it. And to compromise or to water down is this is not the day for that. People are looking for something different than culture. They’re looking for truth. They’re looking for life, something that’s realer than real life, that’s truly life, and we can’t compromise it. I think we shouldn’t apologize for it because the Bible is so incredible. Our faith is amazing. It’s deep, it’s rich, it’s explanatory, it’s supernatural. But once you believe in God and everything falls into place, and so we need not compromise. We need not compromise our beliefs, but we hold them not only with confidence, but with gentleness, right? When we’re interacting with others, we don’t compromise though I think we lose the respect of the nonbeliever when we start apologizing in the saying, I’m sorry, when we fall over ourselves to apologize for what we believe because we have what they’re looking for. We have the answer, we have truth, and we never want to compromise that.

Jamie Mitchell:  Amen. Amen. The book, I want to commend it to you is atheist Finding God by Jana Harmon. Please get it, it to be a help. And here’s why. Beloved understand this. We are living in a day today that is attacking the beliefs of Christians. It’s attacking beliefs of everyone, and there would be nothing more that the unbelieving world would do is to push the people towards the belief that there isn’t a God, even though the heavens declare the glory of God. You just look outside and you can see that God is, and those who believe that need to hear from us. And so I want to encourage you, that’s why we’ve been talking to Janet today. Thanks Janet for joining us today. And thank you friends for listening. Again, come back tomorrow for another stand in the Gap. Today you may be facing a conversation with an atheist, and so as I end every program, live and lead with courage and atheist may need you to be courageous. God bless you and have a great day.