One Choice…Two Incompatible Systems
June 30, 2025
Host: Hon. Sam Rohrer
Guest: Marlene McMillan
Note: This transcript is taken from a Stand in the Gap Today program aired on 6/30/25. To listen to the podcast, click HERE.
Disclaimer: While reasonable efforts have been made to provide an accurate transcription, the following is a representation of a mechanical transcription and as such, may not be a word for word transcript. Please listen to the audio version for any questions concerning the following dialogue.
Sam Rohrer:
Hello and welcome to this Monday edition of Stand in the Gap Today. Now generally on this Monday program, I highlight the most recent headline news, which as I’ve said many times because it’s true, big things often arise after the close of day on Friday. But today there are headline news on which we could focus, but I felt a need to back up just a little and to consider the underlying and foundational forces that actually like the tide that brings all boats up. As we know that kind of produces these headlines, things don’t happen in a vacuum, is to point. And in our age of increasing technology and its driving of communications, which it does, and the integrated systems of communication control and surveillance, which we now all know it does, and is increasing the interaction of the big players that put them that way. Big government, big business, I’m going to put in there big religion.
They’re literally merging into, as we’ve talked many times, the prophesied beast system. And this merging has become so seamless that the ability to identify the embedded deception is nearly impossible, which is why I think Jesus started with that warning to the disciples of the signs of our day deception. He says, don’t be deceived. He said it because it would be such a big temptation. But while the world says that there are many ways and have it your way, they really mean bow down and yield to its way. And most have done that. Most have done it in the past. Most are bowing down today Jesus warns in contrast to the siren calls of the world, which pulls people their way that there is, but one way to life eternal and that way is narrow. And there are very few that find it. That’s what he says.
And that way is him Jesus and through him. So the world system well, and we know it denies Jesus, it repudiates his way. And since creation has sought to develop a counterfeit system that promises life eternal but guarantees death and punishment eternal. So I’ve asked Dr. Marlene McMillan, author of Mountains of Deceit, how the dialectic process as infected the culture and other books as well, to join me again today to revisit for many of you listening, perhaps a revisit. And sometimes for you it could be the first time, but it’s these things. It’s the foundational pillars of these two ways that literally continually vie for our attention and compare and contrast them so that we can know the truth, which the scripture says alone can set us free. The title I’ve chosen to frame our discussion is this One Choice two Incompatible Systems. With that, Dr. Marlene McMillan, thank you so much for being back with us today.
Marlene McMillan:
Oh, thank you for having me. And blessings to you, your family, this audience and everyone here that takes the time to listen and really care about making a difference in this world.
Sam Rohrer:
And that’s what it takes. It’s a choice and that happens to be what we’re going to talk about. Let’s lay the foundation here. First of all, Marlene, about the premise of these two ways spoken about in scripture and how the world repudiates, as I’ve said in our listeners would note Repudiates, this narrow approach that Jesus says is there, but in the end promotes its own narrow way. Would you explain from your perspective these two ways and the worldviews which undergird them, just lay the foundation?
Marlene McMillan:
Okay, so God’s system is a system of covenant that rewards obedience and punishes rebellion. The world system tries to tell you that you can do whatever you want, you just said have it your way, but in the end it is really a plundering system. It’s tyrannical, it is very status centralized, and what ends up happening is a complete loss of liberty. So the world system, we often use the term the Babylonian system kind of as a cover word or as a general term. There’s many different ways of describing it. And it’s basically a system of cabals coalitions and networks that normalize rebellion and enthrone tyranny while making people think that they are acting of their own free will. So if you think of when you see the animals, if you’ve ever been to a slaughterhouse, and I know this may be an ugly illustration, but it’s really appropriate for right now, usually there’s a shoot that the animal walks down. But what if there were many different shoots even painted different colors and they had different pretty symbols on them and all, but it doesn’t matter which gate is open, the animal is still going to be led to the same fate. And so the world system sets you up with 50 shades of tyranny. It makes you think that you’re all operating on your own when you have been preprogrammed to accept tyranny as normal and accept the idea that someone else will be in charge and basically do the thinking or tell you what to do.
Sam Rohrer:
That’s excellent. I like that idea of multiple shoes, but it all goes to the same place. That’s what the world says, have it your way, do your own thing. It makes it appear like there’s a lot of different ways as compared to the one way Jesus says, but in the end, all those shoots go down to the same place they have one way. So let’s think about this. Now, the matter of choice, you have these ways in front of you. I go back, I think of the Old Testament. The Israelites came out of bondage, but many of them still wanted to kind of go back to the perceived safety of Egypt, even though they were in bondage there and Joshua had to stand up and say, Hey, hey, choose you this day who you’re going to serve, Egypt or Yahweh. Explain briefly the premise of choice making and that while there are only two ways, there’s only one choice.
Marlene McMillan:
Okay? So the word of God is very confessional, meaning that you have to overtly say, I believe I receive. You have to make a choice for yourself. There’s no group salvation, there’s no group rights that comes down to individual choice. And so the world system tries to color or paint or construed their way as being beautiful, but underneath it’s really death. It’s very much like the two trees in the Garden of Eden. The one was the tree of life, the other was the knowledge. So it’s basically the knowledge of good and evil, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. So it’s mixture. Oh, there’s good things there. So we hear people say all the time, but they’re doing so much good. Well, maybe they’re doing good, but at what price? So the choice before us is to get us to give our children what they really want is our children.
Sam Rohrer:
So ladies and gentlemen, a choice. We all would know that choices have consequences and boy does it ever. And it applies to what we’re talking about today. One choice, two incompatible systems. When it come back, we’re going to build out this concept of systems and describe it a little bit clearer if you’re just joining us today, thank you for being on board with us generally on Mondays, I am highlighting some major theme, some major headline of which we’ve had seems like headlines nonstop for many years, particularly this year it seems. But today, instead I’m trying to go behind those headlines a little bit and consider the driving force that actually causes these things to come forward. That puts every one of us in a position where we have to look, consider, analyze, and then choose what to do about it. And that fits within the context of these days of deception that I talk about regularly here, that Jesus says of these days, don’t be deceived.
And I’ve often asked a question deceived about what? Well, literally it’s about everything and it’s certainly those things that come from the world because you don’t get deceived by the truth of God’s word. You get deceived by that, which is not God’s word. Alright? So that’s basically everything out there. So within that context, Dr. Marlene McMillan is joining me today. She has website, been with me many times before, but her website again is why liberty matters.com, why liberty matters.com. And we’re going fundamentally to the core here today. Our theme, one, choice two incompatible systems. Now in numerous places in scripture, here’s just one, one John two 15, it says, for instance, this love not the world, neither the things in the world, if any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, the pride of life is not from the Father, but is from the world.
Now, that’s one John two 15. And in this passage as is in others, the world is described as the world and the things that are in the world. So both the world and the things in the world are clearly attractive. They must be, they are because God warned us about it, but because most people love them, the scripture is also very clear. If you do, you will prove that the love of God is not in you. Therefore, and that’s what it’s there for in effect, as Joshua demanded choose you this day. There’s a choice that’s made every person must choose, but how can we know what is of the world and those things that are part of the world and what is of God, right? That’s a good question there. Now Marlene, in your many presentations, you go into detail on this matter of the two systems which vie for the affections or the love of each person created in the image of God, of which we all are as human beings. Would you explain the concept of systems? What is a system in its primary features?
Marlene McMillan:
Okay, so part of what makes a system, a system is that it operates no matter whether the individuals that are living in that era or that time really want to participate or not, it is like when a teacher says, I am not going to teach that material to seven year olds, and the school district comes back and says, well, if you won’t, we’ll get someone else that’ll do that. See, God created people. God has a system that his system is based on individuality and covenant and love and proper relationships. And it respects, not just respects a person’s conscience, but encourages the conscience where conscience is the most sacred of all property. So the world systems make people like bricks instead of stones. Bricks are all the same. They’re interchangeable, replaceable, they’re lacking in individuality. They don’t have original thinking, their conscience. There’s not a conscience when everybody has to think the same. And there’s a lack of invention and creativity where, and world systems get people to believe that they must conform in order to eat, have respect, belong, have value. Systems by design are group focused and compliance and conformity are essential for the world’s systems to work. So if you know your kingdom purpose and you have a vision of what God has called you to do and it’s not in line with just serving the state, then you don’t fit into that system.
Sam Rohrer:
So the system is that thing into which we live, which in this case as I read there from First John, it is the world system, right? The world and the things in the world where we find ourselves. The default of all that is, is the world and the system. So we’re in it kind of like a boat that’s going down the river, and that’s where we are right now. So here it comes, but the Bible says there’s a problem with that. So here’s this in our nation, Marlene, which is so heavily, I mean America has been known making it this way, but you have the world. But let’s talk about America here. We’ve got an independence day coming up here on Friday. We fancy that we are the most free, the most autonomous. We talk about individual rights and rightly so it comes underneath, but this whole concept of do your own thing and you can all of that. Here’s the question. Can a person actually be a part of a world’s system but still believe they’re doing their own thing? And then tied in with this as well is being influenced by one’s peers or peer pressure the same as you’re describing, as being part of the system. In other words, being a part of something that is causing and leading you in a direction but you don’t know that you’re going that way. Explain that.
Marlene McMillan:
Okay, so you think about how even in a family you have to run your family with a system of some sort. There has to be a way. I raised seven children and in order to have peace and happiness and get everybody to church on time actually in the van with their socks matched and all those things, that was a lot of effort and there had to be systems that made that run where everybody knew how it worked. We’re not talking about that kind of system. We’re talking more about a culture that sets itself up to take away individual liberty and the beauty and the way God created people to be and follow his design for social order. God does have a design for social order and I have teachings that go into that, but the world system is set up to make people be in rebellion to God.
So it’s one thing to make an individual choice. In fact, let’s just say right now what’s the difference between freedom and liberty? And the term freedom will be used a lot this week, but freedom is more of a licensed term. Freedom is like the license to do what’s wrong, where liberty is the right to do what is right, what is correct, what is true. And so whether or not we acknowledge this, when we align ourselves with God’s principles, we align ourself with his blessing. And when we align ourselves with rebellion, then we open the door to tyranny, which then puts us under curse. And tyrants love to have people who are fearful, who are easily manipulated and who fear people instead of fearing God.
Sam Rohrer:
Okay? So God has a system as you’re describing it, a system, a way of order. And you’re saying that system is not the same thing necessarily as being orderly and having a planned organized discipline approach as you compared to raising seven children. You got to have order, you have to have something in place. But that’s not the kind of system we’re talking about here, where the world’s system is actually competing against God’s system is orderly. The devil’s system can appear orderly, but it’s not really is it?
Marlene McMillan:
Well, not only is it not orderly, it kills the very part, the very essence of the soul. And it is a choice for death. When we go back to choose life or choose death, it encourages a person to have the very thing that is filled with love, the joy of the Lord. That is my strength to change that loyalty where we serve the heavenly Father out of love and to change my loyalty to being that of the state or the world or who ever will take care of me. So a lot of it has to do with how tyrants run the world. So this world system I’m talking about actually is a tyrannical system that sets up the stage for tyrants to come in and there is a tyrants playbook. And part of what they do is they will come in and say, we’ll assume responsibility for you. We’ll make your life easier. We’ll make sure you have a way to get food and a way to get education. We’ll provide healthcare for you, we’ll provide housing for you, and all you have to do is make an exchange. Just sell your soul and everything else will be fine. We’ve got to have an awakening now as Christians that we cannot continue to fund and fuel that system.
Sam Rohrer:
Ladies and gentlemen, Romans 12, two says, in be not conformed to this world that be transformed by the renewing of your mind. We’re trying to do a little bit of that explanation here today. The world, the system, the world system demands conformity as Dr. Marlene McMillan. It’s made so clear, but that’s not conformity to the world is the exact opposite of what we need. We talk, we’ll compare now the two systems when we come back. Okay, Marlene, let’s continue on in our discussion here now on this matter. One choice, two incompatible systems. And if you’re just joining us ladies and gentlemen, we talked with the overall concept of two ways. There are two ways. Jesus said there is the narrow way. Few be that find it, then there is the broad way, the world’s way. And we referred to one John passage last segment about the world’s way, the things in the world and the world itself present to all people, a high level of attractiveness.
We are in this world, the scripture tells us, but we are not of it. Well sometimes we can be in it and be deceived. And Jesus said, don’t be deceived because the world and the world system is all about deception. It’s all about violating our individual capacity and choice as laid out by God as Marlene. You made so very, very clear in the last segment. It demands conformity among other things, but it’s ultimately rebellion against God. But this world system referred to by the Apostle John and First John when he wrote that almost 2000 years ago, that wasn’t the first time the world or the world system was a problem for the people who were alive. There’s a lot of history to this and what we’re facing today, ladies and gentlemen, with the system of the world today and its particular strategies to vie for our affection and our love.
There are some things different about it before, but surprising a lot of similarities. And one of the things that King Solomon makes clear in the book of Ecclesiastes, as he says, there’s nothing new under the sun. And so before I ask you, Marlene, to identify the modern day systems and the way they are presenting themself, vying for our love and affection, will you go back in history a bit? And since there’s nothing new under the sun, identify the first real world system, that vibe for the affections and the love of people then and how it did it.
Marlene McMillan:
Oh, if we could learn from history, let’s go back and think about Nimrod. This is way back in Genesis 10 and then Genesis 11 where it talks about the Tower of Babel and basically the people wanted to reach to heaven, they wanted to have a spiritual life without going to God. And that is spelled out in Genesis 11. Now, one of the things about Nimrod that’s so important, he was called a hunter of men. I’m sorry, he was called a great hunter. But most people think of a hunter being a hunter of animals. But what he was really known for is he would hunt up people. In other words, he was a tyrant who would enslave people to come work to help make brick, to build his tower. And so the patterns that he used, the way that he manipulated people and got them to do what he wanted them to do is still being used today.
This is part of why I teach on the dialectic process and how language is used for deceit. Because we either are going to learn from these things and see that if we are vulnerable, if we do not know how to trust the Lord, if we are in a position where we think there’s no other choice, some of the lies that were told as a culture is that you have to conform, you have to have all these things and all this technology in order to live. The problem is this system is set up to get your loyalty and in the process to destroy your soul. And remember, they always want your children.
Sam Rohrer:
Okay, so you used the word at the beginning, I think in the other segment that in a broader sense or sometimes the word used as Babylonian system, actually Nimrod that you described, it was the roots of the Babylonian system. Define that a little bit in some of the elements that converge within that system as it further set up our comparison to what the system is actually today that’s vying for our attention today.
Marlene McMillan:
So when you look at these systems in the Babylonian system, they had a way to take care of people’s health. They had a way to take care of their food. And let’s just start with food here, and I’m going to move this from there to forward with the idea that food that is bad for us, processed food, foods that have a lot of additives, foods that they may have long shelf life. And I do understand that people need food that doesn’t spoil and all of that, but those cheaper processed foods are easy to obtain and the foods that will really feed your body and bring long-term health are harder to get. And so whatever area of life, whether it be housing or even health, the health systems that are designed, they’re almost like sickness, maintenance systems, systems. They’re managing sickness instead of setting things up for people to be well, those are part of our modern day outgrowths.
Or the same way that these systems are being repeated. The thing is we don’t have to go there. And yet I hear people all the time say, well, it’s all that was available to me. Even when I started homeschooling, people said, oh, it’s the only thing public school. What do you mean? Why would you do that? Or even having babies at home, people said, oh, I would’ve liked to have done that, but I couldn’t find anybody. Well, those of us that did find somebody. So what’s the difference? Why are we seeing people just almost walking blindly into funding and fueling the system that is designed to destroy the values that we hold dear?
Sam Rohrer:
And again, we could be very, very, very specific. I mean, in my mind and those listening right now, remember the days I’m going to put this way, the days of COVID as an example because it’s real in everybody’s minds. It was an emergency, a government mandate and things began to happen and people had to make a choice. And there was a difficult choice between, is what I’m hearing true or is it not true? For those who went to the word of God and say, wait a minute, wait a minute. Most went a different direction perhaps than others, but that was an example. And the system worked hard at finding and compelling people to conform. But that’s just like you’re talking, that was a system, a world system driven thing. Now in the remaining parts here, let’s look at the modern world system. You and I have talked and you talk a lot about technocracy and the technology aspect, but there are things different now about Nimrod’s day, but yet there are similarities. Alright? Describe some of that system today that is seeking conformity from people.
Marlene McMillan:
Well yes. And first of all, I want to say it’s easy to control fearful people. So we’re going to repeat that several times, but I want folks to remember when you get into a spirit of fear, it’s easy to be controlled. And so the way things are set up now, it’s set up so that whether it’s the parents that’s afraid to go against the school board and then you get into the whole school government system that is designed to train people to have more of a status mentality. And so what you have is like group learning leads to group thinking. So private learning leads to private thinking. So even if we just talk about the educational system, the educational system is set up to teach people to fit into this program to be compliant, to being told from somewhere else what to do or what to think.
And I don’t know if everybody’s listened to John Taylor ghetto’s material, but they just released some new material from him of his old lectures. And basically he even talks about how the bell, when the children learn to respond to the bell ringing in the school, well, they may just be getting interested in actually learning something, but the system is set up so that you have to constantly be moved. You don’t have time to think. And I tell my regular listeners on my webinars, you have to allow thinking time, you have to have everybody being on the treadmill, everybody being so busy, you have to have time alone with the Lord and time to think, and you have to be careful what you get caught up into as spending your time even politically. I mean it can become all-consuming to where all of a sudden others are making decisions about the way you spend your time and they’re taking away from your family time and the things that really matter.
Sam Rohrer:
And Marlene, that’s excellent and at the end of this segment here, ladies and gentlemen, but just think by just that one part, stopping and thinking. The world system is made to keep us entertained and distracted from the moment we get up to the moment we go to bed. And we know that because it’s measurable in health, it’s measurable by all the statistics and the research, how much time people spend on their phones and an amazing time. But all of that is geared as part of the world’s system and it directly competes with thinking like God would have us to think. So even that thinking, when we come back, we’re going to consider and give some practical suggestions on this matter of right now all these things being the case. Two vying systems. Alright, making the choice. Alright, as we enter the final segment now today we’ve discussed this matter of one choice, two incompatible systems and talking about the system God has his way that life is to run, he created, he established a plan.
It was subverted, we’d know choice was made by Adam and Eve and other things have happened that we’ve laid out. And now there is a world system. So all who are born are born into the world system and we’re told in scripture in many places, do not love the world or the things that are in the world because if you do well, then the love of the Father is not in you. Now what’s that mean? Well, that means if the love of the Father is not in a person, it means they’re not born again. It means they are not going to heaven when they die. That means they have no true hope of eternal life. Yet the world offers a fake hope. It offers allure and gold and glitter and all of the things that the world has to offer, which it says in one John the lust of the eyes and the lust of the flesh and the pride of life.
Those are the things that the world offers. But what’s it end up with? Eternal death. That’s what it is. Alright, so the choice is important. So the idea is choose. And from the day of Adam and Eve, they had a choice. We’ve already referred to it, that eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil or don’t. Well, Cain and Abel had a choice too. Sacrifice to me like I demand, God said or become a rebel. And Cain became a rebel. Joshua made clear of the choice after the Israelis came out of Egypt and some of them still wanted to go back into slavery because they felt more comfortable there. And he said, choose you this day, the world system or Yahweh, Deuteronomy 30. God said, I’ve put before you today two ways, life and death, choose life that you might live. Then Jesus came as the truth and said, I’m the way.
Choose me. Alright? So it is today. So it’s been that way from the beginning. And it’s interesting, Marlene, in the last segment you made a comment about needing the time to just think. And I talked about all the distractions around us. A faithful listener texted me, his name’s Don, and he said this and I thought it was very good. It shows the involvement, I think of our listeners. He said this social media has resulted in a generation who values followers over leaders. As a result, large portions of society have unwittingly delegated their thinking to others. And I wrote back to him. So in reality that’s the case. But Omar, let’s go here. This matter of choice. Alright? Now, I think most people’s minds, they know they make a choice. They make choices all day long. Most we know according to scripture, who even say they are Christians. We know that’s what the statistics are. They make an acknowledgement of God. They know that God is there, but they’ve not made a choice for life through Jesus. They’ve kind of gunned their own little way and their own thing. And they think they have an unwillingly. Perhaps they think they’re okay, but they’ve actually chosen the world system and death, but they think they’ve chosen life. Okay, now for those that are in that category, those who are walking fooled, what can you say to these people?
Marlene McMillan:
Okay, so in the United States we love to say that we’re free people. We think of ourselves as the land of the free and the home of the brave. And yet when you step back and you look at what’s really going on free, people are not trapped everywhere they go. Free people do not have to have reporting systems and all these things that are going on. Well, what happened with this? First of all, that Christians were changed. I guess you would say what is normal? Okay, so what has become normalized? Well, it’s become normalized even in the church, to not really take God’s word seriously, to actually obey his commands, to care about the kind of fruit that we produce. And so that we raise our children to fear God over man. And where passages like in acts where the disciples say, we must obey God rather than man, now we have churches saying, obey the state over man. And so this whole thing is all tied together with when you say Jesus is Lord, you can’t in the same breath then say the state is Lord. And so I think you wanted to go somewhere else with that too.
Sam Rohrer:
Well, that’s okay. There’s another part I want to ask on that because that is fundamentally people who think they are okay with God must simply just look in the mirror and say, who am I obeying? Do I fear God? Am I keeping God’s commands? And if they just go there, okay, that’s one thing. But here’s another category. People, those who do know the Lord but are very much afraid as rightly so of being a rebel. So the commands of submitting ourselves to those who are in authority, obeying those who have the rule over us, can sometimes become confusing. Particularly when government comes up with a crisis where they declare an emergency. Now people are in fear and they lay down mandates such as what we’ve seen before. And then people say, oh, I’ve got to do what government’s telling me to do, even though it doesn’t seem right. Speak to that group of people because that is an area that we’ve been there before. We may be there again.
Marlene McMillan:
Okay, so I’m actually going to quote Thomas Jefferson, rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God. And this is something that every Christian has to mature into and understand. I actually, I will have some teaching out later on this year, even on what’s called a theology of resistance. And it’s very submissive like it’s submissive to God. It’s not an attitude of rebellion. But what you have happening, even with something like the Patriot Act, it was presented as being for our protection, but it was a loss of essential liberty. And so we have to come back to safety is of the Lord and to trust him. And the many times when you hear someone that is in political power, especially even somebody like Nancy Pelosi quoting to us, telling Christians that it was time for them to obey, she would say these things during COVID, it’s time for you to listen.
She’d even say to the pastors, get your churches in line and get them to do what they’re supposed to do. Well, according to who’s authority. So this comes back then to who or what is in control, who’s the authority of your life? And it’s time for the pulpits of this land to start teaching these things. I mean, what we do in our webinars is we teach what the Bible says about law, government, history, economics, and education. These are areas that have been abandoned by most pulpits. And the results now are all around us as our essential liberties are being stripped from us, even in the name of safety, even in the name of conservatism. And there’s so much more here that people need to delve into.
Sam Rohrer:
Absolutely. And of course, when things come from that area, when they come from a religious source or a conservative source or someone who says, I’m a constitutional for whatever that is how oftentimes deception can come because coming from another side could be clearly identifiable. So ladies and gentlemen, the truth of God’s word, the authority of scripture must be with a starting point. It must be the ending point. When we submit to that, we will be under authority. Why Liberty matters.com. Marlene is your site and people there can find out about your webinars as well. Yes or no? Yes.
Marlene McMillan:
Yes. They can sign up what they sign up for the newsletter, then they’ll find out about the webinars.
Sam Rohrer:
Alright, excellent. Why Liberty matters.com is where Marlene gives a lot of further instruction and much greater detail. And so you might want to consider it going there. Thank you for being with us today. Take this information, consider it well because it is before us. It is real. We face it every day. Let’s face it with our eyes open, committed to fearing God and keeping his.
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