Charismatics: Clarifying the Confusion

Charismatics: Clarifying the Confusion

July 16, 2025

Host: Dr. Jamie Mitchell

Guest: Dave Kistler

Note: This transcript is taken from a Stand in the Gap Today program aired on 7/15/25. To listen to the podcast, click HERE.

Disclaimer: While reasonable efforts have been made to provide an accurate transcription, the following is a representation of a mechanical transcription and as such, may not be a word for word transcript. Please listen to the audio version for any questions concerning the following dialogue.

Jamie Mitchell:

Well, welcome to the most exciting hour of my day, and I mean it. I just love being able to come into your home, office, dorm room, kitchen or car, and bring you information, insights that will build up your faith and make you a more courageous Christian. And it is our privilege to do. And I’m Jamie Mitchell, the director of Church Culture, and it’s my joy to host another episode of Stand In the Gap today. And joining me is one of my favorite guests and a good friend, Dr. Dave Kistler. Dave, it’s been a while. Welcome back to Stand of the Gap.

Dave Kistler:

Well, Jamie, let me say it’s a delight and honor to be on with you today and I can hear it in your voice, and that’s one of the reasons I love and appreciate you so much. And it’s a delight to be on the program with you. You are always so hopeful and always filled with enthusiasm. And today’s topic is one that I’m honored to share with you. And so I’m looking forward to what we’re going to discuss.

Jamie Mitchell:

Well, Dave, thanks for your kind words. I wanted you to join me today because of our topic. And my guess is that because of your ministry and being out there amongst churches, that you’ve had numerous opportunities to engage people who may have some different theological ideas than maybe we do. Yet we love them, they love Christ, and we really need to find unity amidst our diversity. And today, our topic, friends are the charismatics and understanding where they’re coming from now, right from the onset. I want to say our intention today is not to bash or belittle anyone who belongs to charismatic or Pentecostal churches. We know that many of them listen and love this program and we love them. And also I should not be surprised that a PN and all those who share in this ministry would not hold to charismatic or Pentecostal teachings. Yet we have linked arms with many and we’ve done ministry together. So I thought it would be good to talk about our differences and some very strong common convictions that we have. Dave, we have a number of theological issues we want to consider today. But before we do, can you share from your past experiences with our charismatic brothers and sisters, what have some of those encounters been like as you have fellowshipped and ministered and been around our charisma and Pentecostal brothers and sisters?

Dave Kistler:

Well, Jamie, let me say this and I want to echo what you just said. I have dear friends that are from Pentecostal backgrounds or part of Pentecostal churches and charismatic churches, and they are some of my close friends. We of course have a crusade ministry, and in the past we have done some crusades that had people that were involved with us that were of maybe a more Pentecostal or charismatic persuasion. I am not that myself, but we have labored together. And I was just thinking this morning in anticipation of the program, I stood in the isle of a grocery store, as did my bride with me and had about an hour and a half wonderful time of conversation and fellowship with a gentleman in our community who is a member of a Pentecostal church. And he’s a dear friend, he’s a wonderful brother. And we just talked about the things about which we agreed the person and work of Christ and primarily evangelism and reaching a lost world with the gospel. And it was wonderful conversations. So Jamie, some of the greatest people I’ve ever met are my friends that come from those backgrounds.

Jamie Mitchell:

Well, Dave, full disclosure as well. I’ve mentioned numerous times that my dad, when he came to faith in Christ in the 1950s from a Billy Graham crusade, it was a Pentecostal church that embraced him and loved him and helped grow him in his walk and his faith. And what’s interesting is that church used the Schofield reference Bible as their Bible of choice. And so there is within the history and roots of the Pentecostal charismatic movement, those who hold clearly to sound doctrine, but they have made some shifts and some changes in the day. Have you evidenced that or seen that Dave, in your dealings with Charismatic and Pentecostals?

Dave Kistler:

Oh yeah, Jamie, I’ve been in the ministry 40 years. In the early days of our ministry, maybe in those days we did not have as many interactions with those that come from a Pentecostal charismatic background, but those that we did were more, and I don’t want this to come across the wrong way, but they were more theologically sound. But there’s definitely been a movement in the direction that I personally don’t believe is very good in more recent years. And I’m sure that is some of what we’re going to talk about today, even though we love these folks dearly and count them as great friends.

Jamie Mitchell:

Well, Dave, this is no small chore because there are 500 million Christians who would classify themselves as either Pentecostal or charismatic. The history of the Pentecostal charismatic movement is a fascinating one. Going all the way back to early 19 hundreds when the Azusa mission or the Azusa Street Church revival broke out a mixture within our history of the Pentecostal charisma movement is one where they were trying to overcome racism and there was an embracing of the black community, and that’s where they found their unity and love. Dave, I can say that in my experience, some of the Pentecostal and charismatic believers I’ve met, they are fervent prayers. They are people who love to worship God with their whole heart. They are much more aggressive in evangelism and sharing their witness about Christ than some of our fundamental friends. Yet there are key theological issues that we need to address and friends, that’s why we do these programs at Stand In the Gap.

We certainly talk about government and culture and the headline news, but we also know because of the vast audience that we have that one of the things that we try to do in serving you on this program is to help you understand some of the theological differences that is happening within churches. And the lines are not as clear as they used to be. And so that’s why we do programs like this. We’ve done Roman Catholicism, we’ve done some apologetic programs about cults and those kinds of things, but understanding within the evangelical community, some of these theological differences are so important and vital, and we as a program feel like there’s not many other programs that are doing this. So that’s why we have taken the, I think, the courageous risk of even talking about these issues. Now, when David and I return, we want to start to understand some distinction within charismatic doctrine. It’s simple, it’s subtle. After today I think you’re going to be to be able to identify the three or four things that there are differences on, but we’re doing this so we can bring unity and love and understanding within the body of Christ. Well, welcome back. Dave Kistler is with me today and we are trying to understand who charismatics and Pentecostals are. Dave, let’s start right there. Can we delineate a difference between a charismatic and a Pentecostal, especially historically? How do you see the difference between these two groups?

Dave Kistler:

Jamie, that is a great question. And I would say this you can trace the Pentecostal movement. Most would say this that are Christian historians back to the late 18 hundreds, early 19 hundreds when there began to be an emergence of an emphasizing of the baptism of the Holy Spirit as a distinct post-conversion experience, often accompanied by speaking in tongues. And that led to the formations of actual denominations like the Assemblies of God and the Church of God. And so Pentecostalism basically functioned within those denominations. But in the late sixties and early seventies into the seventies, this phenomenon known as the charismatic movement began to emerge. And it so individuals within established denominations, I’m talking about Baptist, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Methodist, even Catholic, some of those mainline denominations began to embrace Pentecostal beliefs and practices, including speaking in tongues. And those things became more prominent within actual denominations. So historically, I believe that’s where the distinctions lie.

Jamie Mitchell:

Yeah, and Dave, you know what’s interesting? I remember my father telling me this, that in the early 1950s, a Pentecostal church again would be much like a Bible church, but it was two really major things that brought about the charismatic influence, and that was that Oral Roberts, the evangelist and Oral Roberts University fame, he began to do crusades much like Billy Graham. And it was in those crusades that he was encouraging both healing and speaking in tongues. And many Pentecostals had never even considered that before that. And then again, the rise of media and television began to spark this. And so Pentecostalism was no longer a church driven denominational thing. It became a movement. It came into Bible studies and college campuses, and then as we know historically even found its way into the Catholic church during their Holy Spirit renewal, charismatic movement time. Now, Dave, I’ve tried to identify some core differences. We’re going to isolate three things in the rest of our program today, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which you mentioned spiritual gifts and then biblical revelations. Let’s talk about the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Dave, what do we as more fundamental evangelicals believe and how does it different than what a charismatic would believe?

Dave Kistler:

Well, Jamie, we as evangelicals believe that the baptism of the spirit is a singular event that occurs at conversion. In other words, when someone is saved, they are baptized with the Holy Spirit. Charismatics often see the baptism of the spirit as a distinct subsequent experience with manifestations like speaking in tongues. And some charismatics also associate other gifts such as healing prophecy with that experience as well. And there’s been different terminology applied to the charismatic belief of the baptism of the spirit they call it. It has been called rather the second blessing and things like that. But we as evangelicals believe the baptism, the spirit occurs at the point of conversion and we are baptized into the body of Christ by the precious Holy Spirit of God

Jamie Mitchell:

And Dave, not to make light of this, but in some respects that idea or that view is that we don’t get all of the Holy Spirit at conversion when we get saved. We don’t get all of the Holy Spirit. We’ve got to get more of the spirit later on. And there’s some inherent problems with that, not just unscriptural issues with believing that you don’t get all of the Holy Spirit at conversion and have to have an additional experience afterwards. I mean, practically speaking, what are some inherent problems with believing that?

Dave Kistler:

Well, the Holy Spirit is a person. And frequently Jamie, down through the 40 years that I’ve been in the ministry, I have heard well-meaning people and some folks, they don’t use this term in any deliberate way to be unscriptural, but they’ll refer to the Holy Spirit as an it. Well, the Holy Spirit is not an it. The Holy Spirit is a person, he’s the third person of the Trinity. And so you don’t get part of a person, you get the entirety of that person. And again, we believe that we get the Holy Spirit indwells the believer at the moment of conversion. And Romans chapter eight, verse nine, or excuse me, verse 11 says, if any man have not the spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And that’s a strong statement to me, Jamie, you get all of the Holy Spirit at salvation. He doesn’t necessarily have all of us.

And if I could use a little bit of a, maybe perhaps even a silly illustration, but recently I had to purchase a new car. That car is loaded with technology, Jamie, that I don’t fully understand. I’ve not fully gone into the handbook to try to figure all of it out, even though a salesman sat down with me and went through a lot of the technological aspects of the vehicle. But when I bought that vehicle, I got all of that, okay, I got everything that comes with that car. Now, I don’t fully understand all of it. I haven’t fully utilized all of it because up to this point my schedule has been so busy I haven’t had time to submit to reading the manual and mastering all of those things that car brings with it. So in like fashion, when we get saved, I believe we get all of the Holy Spirit, but he doesn’t necessarily have all of us, and that is a process called sanctification as we yield more and more to him.

Jamie Mitchell:

Well, Dave, what’s interesting is I just had my devotions the other day. I get this email sent to me each day and we’re working through the book of Acts, which was timely for this program. What’s interesting is there was a person in the New Testament called Apollos, and it says that he was a man mighty in the scriptures. Isn’t that interesting? But it also says that he did not understand the Holy Spirit. And when Paul heard about this, he was both encouraged but also discouraged, and he had to assign some other disciples to help Apol understand more fully how the Holy Spirit works. And I guess that’s what we’re talking about here, Dave, is that sometimes people can know the Lord and they can even know some of the scriptures, but a major doctrine like how the Holy Spirit in dwells our lives and when that indwelling takes place and what the baptism of the Holy Spirit means can be misunderstood by people, and we have to then go back to the scriptures and be both retaught or maybe taught a new and afresh. Isn’t that an interesting situation that we find in the Book of Acts as well?

Dave Kistler:

Yeah, and Jamie, that’s a great analogy and a great illustration of Paul is one of my heroes of scripture is very clear that he was a powerful, powerful communicator of the Word of God, and yet Paul evidently encouraged Priscilla and Aquila to take him and discipline, and the scripture says they expounded into him the way of God more perfectly. In other words, they taught him and discipled him. So yes, that’s exactly what we’re talking about today. These differences with respect to the ministry of the Holy Spirit and the role of the Holy Spirit are things that I just firmly believe some of our brothers and sisters maybe misunderstand and like Apollos, this is not a slight against him or anybody else for that matter. Just need to understand maybe in a little more clear way what the work of the spirit actually is.

Jamie Mitchell:

Well, one of my heroes, modern day heroes was Steven Olford Dave, and he said it this way, Stephen Olfer said, at Salvation I got all of the Holy Spirit. The problem is that he had not gotten all of me, meaning that there is a measure of growth and maturity and understanding that was needed to understand fully how the Holy Spirit is operating and that I didn’t need another experience. I got all of the Holy Spirit. And so it’s really a matter, Dave, isn’t it, of discipleship, maturity and sanctification and understanding how the Holy Spirit works.

Dave Kistler:

Jimmy, I agree with you and just for the record, Dr. Steven Olford became a great friend years back, I met him, loved his ministry, very balanced, very loving for those with whom he may have this particular theological difference. And yeah, great, great, great way of saying it. The Holy Spirit didn’t get all of me though. I got all of him.

Jamie Mitchell:

And as we friends, as I pastored and pastored a lot of people over the years who came out of a Pentecostal background, this was the number one issue. If I could help them understand and see that they just had a simple difference, they needed fuller understanding, their eyes would open and they would begin to see that you know what? I’ve had a misunderstanding about when I am in dwelled and baptized by the Holy Spirit and that I don’t need a second evidence of it, that at the moment I came to faith in Christ, the spirit of God came and dwelled in my heart and my soul just as in the day of Pentecost. Well, when we return, one of the things connected to the baptism, the Holy Spirit within the charismatic camp is the idea of spiritual gifts. Dave and I are going to address, maybe unwrap the gifts and discuss the differences here at Stand in the Gap today.

Well welcome back to a special day here at Stand in the Gap, APN board member and one of the original Stand in the Gap today host, Dave Kistler is my guest. And we’re discussing charismatic doctrine and the difference that conservative evangelicals have not to divide, but to appreciate and to understand each other. And Dave, the second big doctrinal difference that I have seen over the years has to do with the issue of spiritual gifts, the special enabling that God gives believers once we come to faith in Christ, the spirit of God is in us. God gives us gifts. Now for the New Testament believer, we know that the apostle Paul really is the only one who ever addressed this issue of giftedness. He wrote in Romans 12 and then Ephesians four and one Corinthians 12, and there are three what I would see as three very different lists with probably different intents and purposes, but the charismatics take a very different view of giftedness. What do we need to understand about spiritual giftedness from the charismatic position?

Dave Kistler:

Well, Jamie, let me do this. Those three passages that you referenced, it would probably be good if we just talk about them very, very briefly. The Ephesians four 11 and 12 passage talks about ministry gifts. It says, and he and the he is God gave some apostles and some prophets and some evangelists and some pastors and teachers for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, the edifying of the body of Christ. There are four gifts given there, and these gifts are people and they’re gifts to the church, the apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers, and of course I am one of those. I’m an evangelist and I thank God for the ministry to which God has called me and that ministry in which I function for decades. So you’ve got that Ephesians passage which are ministry gifts, and then you have the other reference you made was to Romans 12.

And in Romans 12 there are what I’m going to call motivational gifts. And in Romans 12, beginning at verse number four, the scripture says, for we have many members in one body and all members have not the same office. So we being many are one body in Christ and every one members one of another having been gifts. Verse six says of Romans 12, differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy let us prophesy according to the portion of faith or ministry, let us wait on our ministry or he that teach us on teaching, he that exhort us on exhortation either, either give us, let him do it with simplicity. He either rule us with diligence, either show up to mercy with cheerfulness. And so you have those what again I’m going to call motivational gifts. And then you have what I think is at the crux of the difference between maybe where you and I would be coming from and some of our dear friends within the Pentecostal or charismatic movement would be the first Corinthians 12 passage, which deals with what I’m going to call the manifestation gifts.

And that word is actually used in Romans 12 verse seven, where it says, but the manifestation of the spirit is given to every man to profit with all for to one is given the spirit by the spirit, the word of wisdom to another, the word of knowledge by the same spirit to another faith by the same spirit to another, the gifts of healing by the same spirit to another working of miracles to another prophecy to another discerning of spirits, to another diverse kinds of tongues, to another interpretation of tongues. But all these work of that one in the self-same spirit dividing to every men severally as we will, so that Romans 12 list of gifts are that which most of the Pentecostal and charismatics tend to focus on.

Jamie Mitchell:

Yeah, and Dave, you’re exactly right, a matter of fact not to get too deep in the theological weeds, but those are three what I would call distinct gift lists. And a matter of fact, Paul uses three different Greek words to identify those three lists, and we do ourselves a disservice when we try to take a shoehorned and push those three gifts lists together and create a super list of 19 or 21 different gifts where I don’t think that they are meant in that way. I think that that is part of the confusion and even the conflict that we feel between the Pentecostal charismatic camps and the Evangelical more fundamental camps. But the charismatic believer focuses on that first Corinthians 12 list, and some would call it the sign gifts or the sensational gifts. Why is that and what would be a better or more biblical accurate way to handle that G list, Dave?

Dave Kistler:

Well, Jamie, let me say this, and again, I want to be very careful. I don’t want this to come across as if I’m being demeaning or bashing anybody because I’m not. Again, I have the greatest of friends that we would differ on the Romans 12 list of gifts, but I think the words you use to describe that list, I use the word manifestation gifts because that’s the word that is mentioned in Romans 12 in the King James sensational gifts, sign gifts, great synonyms, but those tend to be more, I’m going to use this word, alluring gifts. They focus maybe more on the individual and can be, they don’t have to be, but they can be more self-aggrandizing because of the sensational nature of them, gifts of healing, miracles, prophecy, tongues, those tend to be maybe more appealing. But yet, if you go back and you look at the Romans 12 list, I mean honestly Jamie, I try to focus more there because those gifts are geared towards serving and in many ways ministering and serving the body of Christ. So again, I don’t want that to sound wrong, but I just think the Romans 12 passage tends to be the more alluring because it is the more sensational, and we live in a culture that is fixated on the sensation.

Jamie Mitchell:

Well, Dave, let’s talk about one of those gifts because one of the things that the Pentecostal charismatic church or believers would say is that we get saved, and then as we described in our last segment, sometime after that you have this experience of the Holy Spirit finally coming in fullness and experience all of the Holy Spirit, and you know that happens because you will speak in tongues. The first problem I have with that is that nowhere in any of the gift passages does it say that every believer needs to have the same gifts. A matter of fact, as stated by Paul, it is that everyone will have different gifts. No one will be the same. In some respects, there will be a diversity in the body, and I may have the gift of teaching and you won’t have the gift of teaching. You may have the gift of exhortation, and I may have the gift of giving, and so we will have different gifts. Nowhere does it say we’re supposed to have the same gift, but also Dave, one of the problems is what is speaking in tongues, and a lot of times they go back to the Acts chapter two, when the Holy Spirit came upon the believers there and the church was born and it says they began to speak in another tongue. Dave, from what you understand, what is speaking in tongues? What is tongues?

Dave Kistler:

Well, Jamie, I’m going to create a distinction between the first Corinthians 12 reference to tongues and the Acts passage referring to tongues. There’s some very specific Greek wording in that Acts two passage, even down to the very dialect that occurred on the day of Pentecost, and it was a gift that was given on that occasion to allow those folks there to hear the word of God right down to their very dialect, not just their very language, but right down to their very dialect. I believe that was a unique experience just for that day and that time. Okay, on the day of Pentecost, you get over to one Corinthians 12, and by the way, my wife and I just came from this region of the world. We just visited this of the world. You have the city of Corinth, it’s a seaport city. You’ve got folks coming into that area from all over the globe, all over the known world at that time, they’re coming speaking different languages, and I believe that it is not an ecstatic speech, that it is not something that is maybe unknown by the person to whom the gift was given, but it’s not an ecstatic speech that somebody is not going to understand.

I believe a gift was given there at Corinth so that people coming from other regions of the world that spoke a different language could understand the word of God, and the whole point of the gift was to those that didn’t believe so that they could understand the gospel and the truth of God. One final thing I want to draw reference to, great point you made, Jamie, there is an emphasis in some of the charismatic churches and Pentecostal emphasis that everybody needs to have the gift of tongues. But what Paul says, even in one Corinthians 12 is the exact opposite of that. He says in verse 12 of one Corinthians 12, four, as the body is one and has many members and all the members of that one body being many are one body, so also is Christ, but he’s very clear to say that each one has a different gift. And so the emphasis that everybody has to speak in tongues if you’re baptized with the spirit, I think is a contrary to that passage in Romans 12.

Jamie Mitchell:

Beloved, we need to focus on Romans 12. That’s the list. That is the grace, the charis that we receive at salvation that we also need to see people walking in the spirit when we come back. We’ll finish this conversation with Dave Kistler and the differences within the Charismatic Pentecostal movement. Don’t go anywhere. Stay with us here at Stand of the Gap. Well, thanks again for entrusting us with an hour of your day. Dave Kistler, evangelist and president of Hope to the Hill Ministry is our guest, and we’re trying to understand the charismatic movement within an evangelical Christianity. As we have said, there’s wonderful believers who we have both encountered who would call themselves charismatics or Pentecostals, but we have found many of them love the Lord and are fervent about their faith, but they just don’t fully understand certain doctrinal issues that we’re trying to bring clarity today, Dave, we’ve addressed the issue of the baptism, the Holy Spirit, that the Bible teaches very clearly that at the moment of conversion, we receive all of the Holy Spirit.

It’s a matter of now maturity and understanding how the Holy Spirit within us and we don’t have to have a subsequential event or activity where we get the fullness of the spirit. And then as Pentecostals charismatics believe sometimes when that happens, then they speak in tongues and this whole idea of spiritual giftedness, and we’ve tried to bring clarity to that. The last issue I want to deal with is what I would title, extra biblical revelation. Not all, but some charismatics and Pentecostal believe that God is still speaking today as he did during the apostolic age. Dave, what do they mean by that? That God is still speaking?

Dave Kistler:

Well, again, Jamie, this is not all, but it is certainly some, and it may be a growing number, but they believe of course that the Bible is the primary source of God’s revelation. They would acknowledge that, but not necessarily the only source of God’s revelation. Adherence to those that would promote and believe extra biblical revelation would say God speaks through his Holy Spirit, through other people, through personal experiences, through dreams, through visions. And what my concern about that Jamie would be is that it leads to a very diminished view of the scriptures. And I’m going to admit this, I’m human. My feelings, my inclinations, any dream that I’ve had through the night, anything like that is subject to error because I am human. And so when we begin to rely on subjective and I would consider dreams and those types things to be very subjective, when we begin to elevate subjective things to the same level and authority as the objective word of God, we get into trouble and it can lead us into doctrinal, apparitions and just doctrinal error.

I remember, and I think maybe I shared with you at a prior time, Jamie, I had a conversation. Dear friend of mine, loved him, then loved him to this day, he is a great guy, but in the course of our conversation, within two or three minutes, he mentioned three things that were very unscriptural and in love. I just said, Hey, can I point this out to you? You’ve mentioned three things and went right to the passages that the things he had said were in violation of in the scripture. And here was his response back to me. He said, well, Dave, I know what I felt. I know what I dreamed. I know what I saw. And by saying that he was elevating his personal experience and these subjective things to equal authority with the word of God. And Jamie, that’s where we get into real, real serious concerns and problems.

Jamie Mitchell:

And Dave, I want to be fair, and as one news outlet says fair and balanced, one of the things that our Pentecostal brothers would say is that we don’t give room for the Holy Spirit. Everything is we put God in a box. Everything has to be very logical, very cognitive, very specific. But I know you and you know me, and we believe that God by his Holy Spirit prompts us and moves us. We may not use the word speak to us, but because of the dynamics of our walk with God, we still believe that God is prompting us to either consider things, do things, look at things, and even reveal things to us. Is that not the case,

Dave Kistler:

Jamie? It’s absolutely the case, and by saying what I said earlier, I didn’t mean to insinuate in any way that that does not occur. If I could draw this analogy, if you were to take your Bible, just hold your Bible up and look at the front of your Bible and see that it is basically square, some people may be in the upper right hand corner in what they believe about things. Somebody may be in the bottom corner, other people may be in the middle. And so there’s room for differences of opinion. But what should not be something that we should ever consider is when we say, I believe God’s leading me to do this, but what we are saying God’s leading us to do or giving us an inclination in our spirit to do, if that is outside the confines of sacred scripture, if it contradicts sacred scripture, I can tell you this, I remember vividly the day God called me to preach.

It wasn’t an audible voice, but it was an overwhelming inclination. And I remember my dad had said, son, check. Check all those things by what the word of God has to say. And those inclinations were not contrary to the scripture. They were in line with the scripture. And if that’s the case, then those inclinations can certainly be coming from the Lord himself from his Holy Spirit. But when there are inclinations or senses or we claim, God spoke to me, maybe not audibly, but gave me this thought, but that inclination is outside of the scripture or country to the scripture. That’s where there’s a tremendous, tremendous danger because the wicked one is very, very deceptive, and we are prone to being deceived. And so we have to have an objective source of truth to which we submit everything, even our inclinations. And that objective source of truth is the word of God.

Jamie Mitchell:

And Dave, one of the things that we have seen in the past, let’s say 15, 25 years, is that this idea of thus sayeth the Lord and that God is speaking to me, and then all of a sudden people making proclamations, especially those in ministry leadership or who find themselves in a place of prominence, it can be very, very manipulative and corrupt when they start saying that God has told me you need to do this, or God has told me we need to build this, or God has told me that you need to give this, and all of a sudden there’s money, there’s decisions, and those kinds of things hung on with the idea that God has told me this. I guess that’s the real danger, isn’t it,

Dave Kistler:

Jamie? It is. And let me give one example here. I have a dear friend. I love him. He loves me. He has been very kind to me. Our relationship goes way back probably 25, 30 years. But I watched him do a Facebook post a number of years ago where he was walking through Washington, DC and he declared something that God had told him. Now, I don’t know if he meant audibly or if he just had an inclination, but what he said, unequivocally, I cringed when I watched him say it. It never came true. In fact, the opposite happened. And so there was a breakdown somewhere, and that’s why I say that we have to be incredibly careful, incredibly guarded about any of the things you just mentioned, that God told me that you’re supposed to do this, or God told me that you’re supposed to give this, or God told me that this is going to happen if we’re relying on something other than sacred scripture. And so that’s where it becomes very, very, very, very dangerous and very, very concerning.

Jamie Mitchell:

Well, Dave, thank you so much. I hope our audience has sensed our spirit in doing this, that we really want to bless them and give them insights and help them. It’s one thing I always really appreciate about standing the gap is that we are honest and thorough, direct, and we never shy away from hard issues, and that’s how we want you to live your life, so live and lead with courage. And so until tomorrow, God bless you and have a great day.