Today’s Leadership Vacuum: A Problem With a Biblical Solution
April 22, 2024
Host: Hon. Sam Rohrer
Guest: Dr. Renton Rathbun
Disclaimer: While reasonable efforts have been made to provide an accurate transcription, the following is a representation of a mechanical transcription and as such, may not be a word for word transcript. Please listen to the audio version for any questions concerning the following dialogue.
Sam Rohrer: Hello and welcome to this Monday edition of Stand In the Gap Today and a new week of relevant and biblically accurate programming. And I trust that you had a worshipful and restful weekend as I and my wife Ruth Ann, and most of our family did. And I hope that you were able to both encourage someone else as well as to be encouraged by someone on the Lord’s Day. It’s the way it ought to be anyways. And if we pursue it that way, it happens. But before I introduce the theme and the guest for today’s program, let me provide a heads up a little bit of a roadmap for the week ahead and could change, but this is the way we’re slotted for right now. Tomorrow, Dr. Jamie Mitchell will host this program and address the theme of revival and why it must start in the church before it can ever spread to the nation.
Sam Rohrer: Wednesday, the honorable Michelle Bachman will join me for the latest update on Israel. We’re going to discuss the passage of this massive, massive $95 billion aid bill passed over the weekend by Congress for Ukraine, Israel, and Taiwan. And the latest on the upcoming May 27th World Health Organization vote, which if passed, will transfer us sovereignty to this Marxist run global body. You don’t want to miss that program. It’ll be the latest on all those things. Thursday, constitutional attorney David, you will join me for a most relevant theme, that topic, not selected just yet. And then on Friday, the Lord dwelling, Dr. George Barna will be with me as we break his latest research. So this will be a packed week and I would encourage you not to miss a single day. Now shifting to the focus of today’s emphasis is Dr. Renton Rathbun is with me today. He’s been with me many times.
Sam Rohrer: He’s the director of the Center for Biblical Worldview at Bob Jones University and a regular speaker for Biblical worldview instruction for BJU Press. He’s going to join me, actually is with me. And we’re going to have an analysis of what I believe to be one of the greatest problems facing not just America, but frankly the entire world. You say, what is that? What’s the matter of leadership? And it’s not that we are all just suffering under the consequences of no leadership. We are literally being destroyed due to a leadership bereft of maturity, morality, and selfless motivation. And whether it’s in political positions from the highest office to the local offices or in academia or within the church or the home, we have a vacuum of true leadership. The prophet Isaiah communicated to Israel of his day and America of our day by application that when idolatry and pride and the shedding of innocent blood in particular reaches a certain level, God in his judgment would raise up leaders among them who would be as children and babies. Isaiah chapter three, verse four says this, and I will give children to be their princes, governmental rulers and babies or infants shall rule over them. Interesting, isn’t it? The title for today’s program is this, today’s leadership vacuum a Problem with a Biblical Solution. And with that, Dr. Renton Rathman, thank you for being back with me.
Renton Rathbun: Thanks for having me. I’m excited about this.
Sam Rohrer: I am as well. And you speak on this, so you’re an educator, you’re a preacher too, you’re a biblical apologist, director of biblical worldview. The issue of leadership, you deal with it all the time. It’s paramount in your mind and it runs all through scripture and it goes beyond even what I just introduced. But to get us all on the same page, would you define the words leader and leadership? Put those together, but get us on the same page definitionally right now
Renton Rathbun: As I define these things, I think what will be important to know is I’m defining them in the most ideal light we can. And so as a leader, I would define leader as a God appointed person who entrusts the delivery of the mission and vision of an institution to those who are in his charge. So lemme say that one more time. A leader is a God appointed person who entrusts the delivery of the mission and vision of an institution to those who are in his charge. And so lemme put that together as God appointed, God governs this world. So sometimes he puts people in leadership that are part of his punishment. Sometimes it’s part of his blessing, but he’s the one that does that. A good leader is one who is not trying to accomplish everything himself, to be the king of all things, but actually entrusts the delivery of the mission and vision of an institution. And he trusts this to those who are in his charge. So leadership then as we look at that term, really is the how someone entrusts delivery of mission and vision to those who aren’t as charge. So the leader is the one who does this work. Leadership is how one is able to do this kind of work.
Sam Rohrer: That’s excellent. Very, very tight. That’s very good. Let’s move into this here. Now the matter of leaders and leadership, we all recognize in this country that what we’re getting is not really well. It’s not what people are expecting. Their lives are being touched by not in good ways, but generally not so good ways. From your perspective, how would you describe the leadership vacuum problem and how significant is it right now in this world around us in America, as most of us are living?
Renton Rathbun: Unfortunately, just to give you an idea of how prevalent this is, poor leadership has become the rule instead of the exception. When we talk about leadership vacuum, what we’re talking about is not a lack of people who are in charge. It’s a lack of people who are leading with real biblical principles. And so we have a lot of people who are in charge, but we don’t have very many people that actually pay attention to the biblical principles needed to lead well. And so I see this vacuum as a twofold problem. First, we do not recognize that there’s a difference between leadership and merely being in charge. Even the pagans have figured this out. You have Simon Sinek telling people that we should stop trying to be in charge and start taking care of the people in our charge, which is a very different way of thinking. But number two, those that are in charge cannot lead because their power is maintained by their fear. And we’re going to talk more about this as this program goes on. But what we find is people that are run by fear are often fearful of the truth itself. And we’ll talk more about that as we go. But that I think are the two biggest issues.
Sam Rohrer: Alright, and I think that’s great. Ladies and gentlemen, just joining us. My guest is Dr. Renton Rathbun, director of Biblical Worldview at Bob Jones University. But we are speaking today about this. Today’s leadership vacuum a problem, but with a biblical solution, we just define the problem. It’s expansive, it’s big, we all see it, we all feel it. But what are the challenges? How did we get here? What are the causes? We’ll unpack them when we begin to come back in the next segment,
Sam Rohrer: Whether a person’s a parent, a politician, a preacher, or perhaps a scientist, a sociologist or a student. If there’s any desire in making better choices, which will lead to better consequences, there’s a simple but powerful discipline that must be followed. First you got to determine the problem. Then you identify the causes that got you to where the problem exists. Then you identify and choose the best solution problem. Cause solution. This approach certainly applies to the matter of leadership, whereas we’re talking today really a vacuum of godly good leadership. Put that way as a matter of fact, that approach I just laid out, it’s a divine approach followed by God himself in regard to his plan of redemption, for instance. What’s the problem? Well, the problem is that there was a gulf too wide to be humanly bridged between sinners and the presence of God. No cause we know it was sin.
Sam Rohrer: And because of sin, there is death making it impossible for sinful man to stand in the presence of God, the solution. Well, Jesus Christ died, was buried rose again from the dead, providing the bridge from sin and death to life in Christ. Not because of us, but all because of him. Right now that’s just a very simple illustration of the power of looking at things that confront us problem and a cause and solution. Alright, Renton, in this last segment you described the leadership problem, you defined it leader leadership, and you described the extent of the problem. Now I would like you to move into the challenges or the causes perhaps as you’ve observed them. How did we get to this point? And you may want to restate just briefly the extent of that problem and then walk into how we got here the causes.
Renton Rathbun: So the extent of the problem really goes much deeper than merely what we would think of as bad leadership. What happens is, as we think of the extent of it, we’re talking about a kind of being in charge in which truth itself, because there’s so much fear, and I’ll talk about that in a second, but there’s so much fear that truth itself becomes a problem. You see what happens is as this generation, my generation who seems to be in charge at this point, what I would call generation X, and if you don’t know who generation X is, I guess if you remember Sylvester Stallone being young, then your generation X. But when you think about our generation between people in their forties, fifties, what you see is a generation that’s fearful of losing their power. They’re fearful in their style of leadership. They are afraid of losing power.
Renton Rathbun: They’re afraid of losing the peace that has given them power. They’re afraid of losing approval of those that have given them power. And in that fear, when truth rears its head, they think of truth almost as a kind of enemy that leads to instability. If it’s dug up might lead to losing your approval. People that have approved of you might lead to painful moments that make the institution or something look bad and your own leadership maybe look bad. If you pursue truth, it can lead to devastating consequences. And if I fear losing what is mine, then truth becomes almost a threat. Oftentimes this is why leaders start abandoning the black and white understanding of truth and they swarm to the idea of the gray places where they can try and retalk their way into ignoring the truth. And this is part and parcel of this fear-based leadership that leads to what I call game theory.
Renton Rathbun: Now, game theory, when someone’s dealing in game theory, they see their leadership as being composed of rules that are oftentimes designed to keep them in charge. They see their employees or their family or whatever they’re in charge of as players that are temporary and controllable because in a game you want to make sure that they’re controllable and then your goals are very short term. They’re designed to please your constituency immediately instead of doing what’s hard for the future. And what we find is this is part of how some men lead their home. It is part of how some people lead a country. It is part of how some people lead even Christian institutions in which their fear of losing their power becomes so strong that even truth itself becomes a threat.
Sam Rohrer: And I think that’s excellent. Here’s a question you’re describing generation XI think what you’re in that category, correct? Alright. In that category, those in positions of power and control explain the difference between power and control because not all who are in power, if they think selflessly as an example, have to hold on so tightly to control. But you are kind of making some statements that if they’re in that position and they’re more concerned about the control, they will tend to play games with the truth. I’m putting that in my words, but that’s kind of what you’re talking about, right?
Renton Rathbun: That’s right. So yes, typically being in charge, or if I can put it this way, gaining a position in which people are put in your charge is often a place of power in which you are setting the agenda and the how of the vision and mission of the institution or your family or whatever it is. And so there is real power there. In fact, it’s even God entrusted power. So the question is am I going to use this power to keep my power or am I going to use this power that has been entrusted to me to then use that as a way of empowering those that are under me? And so in a family situation, am I someone that rules over my wife with an iron fist or am I someone that uses the power that God has given me to empower my wife in a biblical way? Am I ruling over my children just to keep them under control or am I trying to teach them so that they one day will understand how to step into my shoes when they have their own family? And so it really comes down to how do I see this power and able to use it in a way that honors God.
Sam Rohrer: Okay. And ladies and gentlemen, stay with us because in the next segment we’re going to lay out the biblical model and we’ll go there and we’ll fill in some of these things. But you’re talking at this juncture, Renton more about those who are in positions of authority or control or can exercise, influence or determine somebody else under their authority, tell them what to do more or less. But let’s talk about those who are under authority, like the employee in an employer relationship or a child in a parent relationship as an example. What are we seeing and noticing relative to leadership in that area?
Renton Rathbun: So today we have entering the market is the millennial. They’re now married, they’re now taking on jobs. Many have children at this point. What we think oftentimes, at least in my generation is that the next generation is just like me, but younger and they’re not. They’ve grown up maybe in a very different world. For most millennials, they have grown up in a family where male leadership just isn’t happening at all. Egalitarianism the idea that there are no roles between the wife and the husband and the husband is not to have an authority over his family has pervaded throughout our country, but also the church. And you have more and more men who have given up their position or their role of leadership in the home. And so that has a big effect on millennials as they come into a place that’s run with biblical principles.
Renton Rathbun: They don’t know how these things work even at home to understand how authority works, even in a workplace, they often come as people who have had very little human connection because technology has ruled their life With millennials, you’re talking about people who’ve come into cell phone use by junior high. And so they have learned from junior high to now how to cloak themselves in invisibility by staring at their phone and having very little human connection. Even video games are still a part of people’s lives, well into their twenties and thirties. Now along with this becomes this instant gratification kind of aspect in their lives where there’s a complete lack of grit because from junior high to now instant gratification has been almost the entirety of what they understand how the world works. So if you tell them they need to work hard at something, they’ll think, well, I tried it one or two times and it didn’t work. And they’ll think that’s all I got. They don’t see that grit really is this discipline that can be achieved even by them. And they’ve also grown up at a time where there’s a large disrespect for authority where defunding police having a distrust for authority in their lives has been a big part of how they’ve grown up even in the media. And so those are those big challenges that we have to face
Sam Rohrer: And those are big challenges and we could go so much deeper on that Dr. Renton wrath bun. But thank you so much for laying that out because ladies and gentlemen, you get the idea, we’ve got a problem, we can see it. What Renton just laid out are some very core centralized causes of how we got here. But we’re going to shift now to looking at a biblical model for what real biblical leadership, good leadership, what it should actually comprise. We’ll be back in just a moment
Sam Rohrer: If you’re just joining us, we’re midway through the program, our theme today, today’s leadership vacuum a problem and a biblical solution, and we’re going to move now into the solution. Every genuine believer in Jesus Christ knows that God is truth. That’s what it is. That’s one of his names. God is truth and he cannot lie that we know. We also know that God’s word is true in all things with no error, none whatsoever. True believers also know that God’s word being perfect speaks to all issues of life. And with study and obedience, well, we’ll go to scripture for guidance and solutions will be found there to all issues and a full understanding of the problem, the causes and the solutions in several terms. Every genuine believer will consciously seek God’s will do it God’s way and in full obedience to God’s word, Renton. The Bible is literally a manual.
Sam Rohrer: And those of us who will do a biblical worldview, which that is in your area, what you oversee at Bob Jones University and you give counsel on putting together curriculum for BJU press in that area. But a true biblical worldview will take people to the Bible as our manual on everything. And that includes leadership, which we’re talking about today with examples of godly leadership. And I’m going to say the wonderful consequences that result, but it also gives examples of evil leadership and the consequences that result from that. So here we go. Would you lay out now, and you could approach it from a number of different ways, but present the biblical model of godly leadership as you have found it to be. I’m going to say not easy, but comprehensive and complete and easy for people to grasp.
Renton Rathbun: I think Paul is a great example of leadership as he led so many churches and so many young men that then led those churches. If you look at one Timothy, this is Paul’s letter to Timothy. You look at one Timothy one, two and you just look at how he’s addressing Timothy. He says to Timothy, my true child in the faith, grace and mercy and peace from God or Father and Lord Jesus Christ. And so you look at that and you see, okay, well what am I supposed to learn about that? Well, first of all, Paul did not see Timothy as a threat. Timothy was a talented man, a talented young man. I am in my fifties now. As I look around, everyone’s getting younger and younger as I look in different and even where I work. And you see more and more talented young men coming up and young women coming up and your first thought is what will become of me?
Renton Rathbun: And instead of that, Paul got excited about young people that had more talent, more gifts, more ability than even him himself. And instead of being threatened by that, he made them his children. He saw them as a someone that will replace me one day and praised God, I will be replaced. I am not irreplaceable. I am not special. What I need is someone that the Lord can use and maybe the Lord has someone even better than me. And so what I see in this first principle of one Timothy one, two is a man willing to be replaced and leadership has to have that immediately. That idea of mentorship has to be in biblical leadership so that someone can understand I need to be replaced as we continue. In Timothy one, you look at verse 15, it says, it is a trustworthy statement deserving of full acceptance that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners among whom I am foremost of all.
Renton Rathbun: And what you see is Paul declaring the why for Timothy. This is why we do what we do, Timothy, we do what we do because our why is that Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners. That’s our why. That’s we exist here. That’s why we’re pastors of churches. This is our why. This is and with a why you have a vision. With a vision you can then have a mission. So what Paul does is he hands down his vision to Timothy and it’s a why worthy of acceptance and worthy of risk. Look at first Timothy one 19. He says this command, I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in all accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you that by them you fight the good fight, keeping the faith and a good conscience. And what do you see here is he’s saying this why that I gave you is worthy to fight for it’s worthy to risk.
Renton Rathbun: And that’s the biggest issue. Paul is handing down to someone that he mentored someone that he even considers his own spiritual child. The why of this institution therein called the church and this why is worthy to fight for and to risk. See, here’s the thing, when it comes to truth, you were talking about that in the beginning of this segment. You think about people that are on a ladder, someone’s standing on a ladder, they’re very careful about how that ladder is grounded and what happens to that ladder, not because they care about ladders in general and they just really are ladder people, but they care about it because they’re on that ladder. They are the person on that ladder and if anything happens to that ladder, they’re going to be in trouble and fall. Well, what happens is people see the institution that handed them power.
Renton Rathbun: They see it that way. It’s not that they care necessarily for the Y, it’s not that the Y is really worth a risk or anything. It’s the thing that upholds them in power. Anytime that thing becomes in trouble or unstable, that’s what they care about. Not because they care about ladders, but because they care about the one they’re standing on to keep them propped up in their power. And so when truth comes along that might introduce a problem with the ladder, they get very upset. What if someone comes forward and says, Hey, a young lady has been harassed by someone. Well that’s John. You just got to know John. He’s just really passionate. And some people misunderstand that. And immediately no one wants to investigate the truth because it might wobble the ladder. And what Paul’s saying is, you my son, this is the why that’s worthy of any risk, any institution that you lead, it’s worthy of the risk for this why. And the why isn’t just a prop up my ladder. The why is this important thing that’s worthy of any risk. And so good biblical leadership begins with someone that is willing to replace himself because the why is that important and willing to risk whatever it takes for the sake of the why and not for the sake of the thing that props him up.
Sam Rohrer: Renton. Boy, a lot of thoughts are going through my mind right here in regard to what you just said, and that is this. Use the phrase in the last segment too. I’m going to put this way truth for someone in a position of authority and who control can be a fearful thing, basically what you said. But what runs through my mind is this. And you shall know the truth, but the truth shall set you free. And I also think truth and accountability seems to go hand in hand. And that’s why leaders or people under authority if they do not have truth, truth will set you free and keep everything transparent. Truth will keep everything on the right path. Throw out truth game the truth as you were talking about. Then you open up the door for every kind of injustice and bribery and corruption and everything along the line that ends up in harsh control of people rather than mentoring them to take your place as you’re saying. I mean there’s a lot of things running through my mind. We could go there but speak a little bit further on whatever you want there.
Renton Rathbun: Absolutely. And you’re exactly right. What we see is that it never starts off with something big, right? It always starts off with someone complained like, well, this guy seems to be harassing this woman. And it’s like, well, that’s just a complaint. That’s just someone’s point of view. If we follow this and something’s really happening, this guy’s actually a good friend of mine. This will look bad. I’m actually the one who hired him. And it’s just one complaint. And what you find is that people begin to create a narrative in their mind, a narrative that will save, if I can keep this analogy going, save the ladder from wobbling. And what they haven’t been able to do because of their own pride is realize the reality. The reality that I’m worried about this institution that’s upholding my power. What I ought to be worried about is that I am in spiritual warfare.
Renton Rathbun: That this institution stands against the workers of iniquity, of the darkness of this world and the spiritual warfare that we fight. And therefore, I don’t have rules, I have strategies. I don’t have players in my game. I have brothers and sisters in Christ. And when I start losing my vision of what that’s about, the way Paul had his vision, right? I begin to start creating narratives in my head that justify the small things that end up leading to huge things. And if I can start justifying the small things, I can certainly start justifying the bigger things. And that’s where leadership starts falling apart.
Sam Rohrer: It really does. And again, we’ll come back ladies and gentlemen, we’re going to do some application here in further solution in the next segment. But I’m thinking in my mind, institution as rent was talking about, I mean you can have the institution of yourself, our own selves in our own mind or our family institution or our church institution or our school or our business. This is applicable to all because every one of us are making decisions higher up in authority or just for ourselves. It’s the same really.
Sam Rohrer: Well as we move into solution mode here. Now we’re trying to wrap this up and we’ve actually, what we’ve presented here, Dr. Renton Rathbun and myself have talked about here today. You could comprise entire days, multiple days, and it’s very challenging to bring a thought of this magnitude in bring it down into simple form. But we’ve tried to do that today. So when I ask you to pray for us on the program, one of them is to not only the selection of themes like this, themes that are real, that are practical things that the Bible speaks about, but how then to take and actually put it together in one hour because we don’t want to raise questions on this program where we cannot answer them or lead people to a position where you might conclude a false answer. So we try to be very careful about that.
Sam Rohrer: Same today with this matter of leadership, we know there’s an issue. We define the problem. We’ve talked about the causes effectively of how we’ve gotten to where we are. And we laid out a biblical model coming right off the example of the apostle Paul to Timothy. But being able to identify the characteristics of good leaders, it’s important for us for without it, people will always bow. I’m going to say to the lowest common denominator of person. And those tend to be the people who threaten, the one who offer bribes or the one who permits evil to continued unrestrained. Now, what I just said are all functions of people in government and they’re directly instructed biblically how to do the things I just said. And it’s what’s our homes as well. And it’s with employer to employee, it’s parent to child, it’s church to people. The applications are the same, but the failure to correct a condition that begins to slide into bribery and corruption where truth is compromised and then leadership fails biblically, the failure of a nation to address this, all the positions of authority from civil to religious to individual become fully corrupted.
Sam Rohrer: And they begin to use and feed off each other to defraud each other. And by so doing, bring God’s judgment on each other. If you want to read where that’s laid out in scripture, go to Ezekiel chapter 22 in verses 25 to 29. It’s perfect in what it lays out. Ezekiel lays out there, all those in levels of government and civil and religious authority found out they could actually steal from each other in a conspiracy to defraud. And they did. And God judged That was Israel that did that. Is it today happening in America? I think so. But Renton, we’re in the midst of civil government elections right now. And so this theme very applicable because everybody who has an opportunity to vote end up having to make decisions which affect our lives by these people who are in office, our properties, our families, our livelihoods, and next month, ladies and gentlemen, Renton and I, Lord willing, we’re going to take and apply these principles that we’ve discussed today and more regarding leadership and how they apply for us and how we should vote and consider how God will hold us accountable as believers for how we vote, by what it is we vote for in individuals.
Sam Rohrer: Now, that’ll be for next month, and I look forward to that program. So make a note of that and pray as we try to put that together, be very practical rent. And as we wrap it up, and I want you to wrap up these things that we set here and bring it down now to how those are listening, be they in positions of leadership or as individuals under leadership. And actually we’re all under authority to some degree, but how can we take and put some of these things we talked about today into effect in our own homes and our churches, our personal lives?
Renton Rathbun: I think where we tend to fail is when we think about leadership in the church, when we think about leadership in our personal lives at home where we work, we tend to think of leadership as king as how am I as a king going to rule over the things that God has put under my power? And what we keep seeing in scripture is quite different than me taking on all the burden of leadership as a king and demand everyone do my will. What we see there is game theory where we create rules that will keep my power in place because that’s what I’m worried about. The people I deal with become players in my hands. I need to control them. If I don’t control them, how am I going to get the things I need done, done? Then I want people’s approval, even though I’m trying to control them, I want their approval.
Renton Rathbun: So I look for short-term goals so that they will approve of me because of these little goals that I’m doing that will lead to some kind of temporary approval. But what you find is approval is always temporary. And so you have to keep finding more little goals to create so that people will continue to approve of you. And that’s what game theory usually is about. What I propose is for us to think, not in terms of game theory, but in what I call foxhole leadership. I spent eight and a half years in the military, and one thing you find is that during combat you are very aware of who the enemy is and who your friend is and the person next to you in the foxhole, you may not like their personality or think they’re the greatest human being of the whole universe, but they are going to cover you.
Renton Rathbun: They’re going to protect you, and you’re going to protect them because your enemy is so absolutely clear. And what we find is that at the core of good leadership is the awareness that we are not at war with each other. We’re at war with powers of darkness, with Satan, with demons. And Ephesians six is very clear about this. This is a spiritual warfare we are in, and we don’t have the ability to live at a time where we get to do leadership during peace. Peace time, leadership is wonderful. We will probably get to see what that looks like in heaven, but we don’t get to see what that looks like now because we’re at war. And so when we recognize as a leader, I am a leader that is a leader during warfare, during wartime, and I know exactly who my enemy is, and I don’t have to like the personality of everyone in my care, but I know that I need to make them, empower them to be able to replace me for this as this work continues and I need to love them in ways that allows them to have some of my power to be able to carry out what needs to be done.
Renton Rathbun: And so I’m not going to invent rules to keep my power. What I want to do is think about strategies so that I become obsolete. I mean, it really is the antithesis of what our flesh wants when it comes to leadership. Our flesh wants us to stay in power and to feel that power, but what a biblical view is that we are actually creating strategies to make ourselves obsolete where others can take our place, where we don’t look at those in our charge as players that I can control, but as brothers and sisters in arms against the enemy that we know is there. And I’m not looking at short-term goals so that people will like me, but I’m looking for long-term goals that might make people disapprove of me or think ill of me, but I’m willing to risk that for the why I am here. Yeah, go
Sam Rohrer: Ahead, Renton, and we’re just about done. But you know what makes me think here, what you’re saying, we think generationally, ladies and gentlemen, we pass along to the next generation, those principles that will allow them to pass along to the next generation. We make disciples, we build people up into the Lord so that they can fulfill and pursue what God has called them to do. Renton, Redman, thank you so much for being with me. His website, worldview.bj.edu, worldview.bj.edu. Thank you so much for being with me today, Renton Legion. Gentlemen, we just ran out of time, too much to cover, but hopefully we got enough here. Go back and listen to this program. You can pick it up here at standard think app radio.com.
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