Ask Sam: Modernism’s Impact on the Methodist Church

Ask Sam: Modernism’s Impact on the Methodist Church

May 3, 2024

Host: Dr. Isaac Crockett

Co-host: Hon. Sam Rohrer

Note: This transcript is taken from a Stand in the Gap Today program originally aired on 5/3/24. To listen to the podcast, click HERE.

Disclaimer:         While reasonable efforts have been made to provide an accurate transcription, the following is a representation of a mechanical transcription and as such, may not be a word for word transcript. Please listen to the audio version for any questions concerning this dialogue.

Isaac Crockett:   Welcome to our Friday program of Staying in the Gap. I’m Pastor Isaac Crockett from East Lawrence Baptist Church up kind of right on the border of Northern Pennsylvania and Southern New York. And my cohost is our normal host of this program, the Honorable Sam Rohrer, the president of the American Pastors Network. And there’s a lot going on this week, and so trying to figure out what to recap with Sam and to ask him questions about today. There’s just been so many things from the rioting going on in our streets to the warfare going on with our allies and enemies all over the world. But as far as religious news, there’s been a big thing, one of the largest foundational denominations. There was a time in our country where it was one of the largest denominations. I think even recently it was the third largest denomination, and that’s United Methodist Church.

Isaac Crockett:   They’ve had their postponed 2020 general conference postponed it to this past week or most of this week at the end of April going into May, been in Charlotte for their general conference and a lot of historical things coming out of it, historic in that they are becoming on paper and everything, more and more accepting of the L-G-B-T-Q agenda and a lot of things that had split, some of it just a few years ago are now being accepted without really any kind of argument going on. And so we want to look at this, but I want to kind of backtrack and look at it through the lens of history as well as the Bible and biblical worldview and see Modernism’s impact on the Methodist Church. So before I go asking Sam some questions, I want to real quickly tell you a story. There’s a young man named after his father.

Isaac Crockett:   I’ll call this man Junior and Junior grew up, his parents were in church and his parents were involved in a little Methodist church and he had gotten involved in a lot of things he shouldn’t have done. A lot of violence, substance abuse, partying, just a lot of things. This was back in the 1960s, late sixties. A lot of stuff was happening that wasn’t good in our nation. And one day in the middle of the night coming home from a big party, the designated driver that night was taking junior back home and got lost a little bit and saw that lights were on at the little Methodist church where Junior’s family went. And he said, man, what are they doing? Are they having a party at the church in the middle of the night? And he said, Hey, junior, your old man’s car is there. And so here’s still inebriated, still drunk.

Isaac Crockett:   He stumbles into the back of this little church in the middle of the night and he hears his dad, who he hadn’t spoken to in a couple of years, they had been butting heads, wouldn’t talk to each other, his dad is on his knees. There’s a farmer from the church who was a deacon on his knees and the pastor there all on their knees and they were praying and they were praying for him. And the Holy Spirit got ahold of his heart and he couldn’t sleep for several nights. And there was a Christian radio station that they would listen to. As many of you listen to radio, his mom would have radio playing all the time. It was WMUU out of Atlanta, Georgia World’s most unusual university. The programming came from Bob Jones University in Greenville. Bob Jones University was started by a Methodist evangelist.

Isaac Crockett:   Bob Jones Sr. And Junior went to that school in his long hair and leather 1960s look, and under the preaching there, eventually he got saved as a visitor and marvelously changed, just complete drastic changes. Went back as a student and was discipled by many of the people there. And that was my dad. And it’s amazing to me that the Lord used radio in his life for his salvation and that he allows me to be a part with Sam and the others of radio right now this ministry. But as we look at the Methodist Church, I have a lot of gratitude towards that pastor that had that all night prayer meeting with my grandfather. I have a lot of friends who have been in different Methodist denomination, even though the United Methodist, one of the three seminaries that I went to was Evangelical Seminary and they had been a group that prior to the United Methodist, they had their own seminary.

Isaac Crockett:   When United Methodist came out, it took over a lot of that group and they took the seminary away from them. Eventually they gave it back to that group. But even to this day when I was there, there were a lot of Methodist students there. I have some very good friends who are part of churches that are still United Methodist or have recently pulled out of the United Methodist. And so Sam, as we are looking at this, I’m not trying to come here just to bash the United Methodist, but I do think that we need to use them as an example, an object lesson right now as this is going on. And could you maybe talk to us, Sam, why it is important for us to look at this. Really we’re going to look at a century of change that’s been going on in the Methodist denomination.

Sam Rohrer:       Well, Isaac, I can, because I just thought of a couple of reasons. You’re right. This what happened with the United Methodist and their convention is a slice of what is happening more broadly. And I’d like to back up and say, what is that obligation that we have as true believers according to the Bible? To be more aware and to be aware that change can happen and that changes do happen. And when it comes to matters of truth, all truth being biblical truth, God is truth. That effort by the work of the devil from the beginning in the Garden of Eden has always been to subvert the truth, to modify it, redefine it, all those kinds of things. And so that’s been a history from the Garden of Eden. And the scripture tells us very clearly there are three places that I would go that I was thinking about this in the book of Jude, right before the revelation, Jude says, there we’re commanded to contend for the faith once delivered to the saints.

Sam Rohrer:       Alright? That means contend means to protect, to ensure that it remains genuine, protect it because they lays it out. After that it will be under attack. So we have to be vigilant is point. Those who hold to the truth, God’s word have to be vigilant, number one. Number two, Jesus tells us, the apostle Peter actually says in second Peter that in the last days there will be false teachers among you who will bring in destructive heresies, even denying the master Jesus who bought them and bring upon themselves swift destruction. Now what that means is, is just simply denying the teachings of Jesus heresy. That’s what that means. So anyways, the Apostle Paul, again, right close to the Book of Revelation where we’re heading right soon, I mean we’re in those days says, watch out. Jesus says all the way through, watch out for false teachers.

Sam Rohrer:       So we’re warned repeatedly. And then I think of the apostle Paul, one Corinthians chapter 11 and verse 19 in one Corinthians, the apostle Paul actually takes the Corinthian church was way back there. He took ’em to task because they were not identifying and they were permitting heresy to come into their midst and subverting the gospel. So for all of those reasons, we are told to be on guard as guardians of the truth, followers of Jesus Christ because the Lord has himself has said the truth of the word will be under attack and it will be increasingly under attack. And so that’s why we have to be on guard. And this examination today is really a part of that. It’s a part of our biblical, frankly, our duty and obligation.

Isaac Crockett:   And when we look at the history of the United Methodist Church, which is what we’re wanting to do today, Methodism, we go back to the founders, the Wesley Brothers, and God definitely used John and Charles Wesley greatly. And there are things where maybe doctrinally or things in their lives that I wouldn’t Fullheartedly agree with, but you can see that in their preaching, in their songs, many of those songs we still use today that the Lord was using them and the Lord has used even again, as I shared personally in my life, folks from the Methodist Church. So we don’t take this lightly, but we want to look at this through the lens of history, but mostly through the lens of a biblical worldview. Talk about what has happened and what has led us up to 2024 and what is going on today. So please don’t go away.

Isaac Crockett:   We’re going to get in, I hope we’re going to get in some interesting things and we want to look at this controversy at the United Methodist Church over the last a hundred years. We’ll be right back on Standing the gap today. Alright, welcome back to the program. I’m Pastor Isaac Crockett, joined by the Honorable Sam Rohr, and we’re talking about modernism in the Methodist Church and we want to look back at the Methodist church movement now going all the way back to the 19 hundreds, the turn of the century, the 20th century. Many seminaries and religious institutions began to accept they were being infiltrated for a while at that point. But what we might, many people call it modernism, there was also socialists and stuff coming into our schools throughout the country, but this modernist movement where they took orthodox teachings and they wanted to modernize things.

Isaac Crockett:   And really when we’re talking about modernism we’re saying that they started saying, you don’t have to take the Bible literally. You don’t have to believe that the Bible was inspired. They began to take a naturalistic approach just like evolution. They started to accept evolution and other things like that and say, we need to be able to explain how everything happens. So when that happens, they start to get rid of orthodox doctrines, the three big ones that meant a lot to churches back in those days. And that really, there was controversy over in the Methodist Church all the way back in the early 19 hundreds where the inspiration of scripture, the virgin birth and the resurrection of Jesus, those three were the first most talked about ones and then that would lead to how people get saved, whether they need to repent, whether they need justification, all of those other things.

Isaac Crockett:   And so there were people, I’ve been reading about this a lot this week all the way back to a Methodist minister, Harold Paul Sloan, and there were others, but he kind a group of conservatives together and they tried to insist on making sure the inspiration of scripture, virgin birth and resurrection of Jesus were left alone. That nobody could be a Methodist without agreeing to those, but they were not listened to that. The people in charge at that time said, look, we got to get along, we got to go along to get along kind of a thing. And they pushed for unity over the purity of those doctrines. And that’s an important thing to remember, Sam. I think we’ll maybe get into some of that more as we go now. By the 1950s when they brought in a bunch of other groups into the Methodist Church called it United Methodist took over some of these other denominations, we saw even more compromise start happening.

Isaac Crockett:   So Sam, I just want to go through inspiration of scripture, Virgin birth of Jesus and resurrection of Jesus because there are other doctrines that were affected, but those are the three that get talked about the most, especially in the Methodist Church of their history. So why are those three important? Let’s start with inspiration of the Bible because I think that’s really the foundational keystone to even these other ones. But Sam, why is inspiration the Bible important that we don’t take the modernist, naturalistic approach to it, but we take what the Bible says about itself being inspired by the Holy Spirit?

Sam Rohrer:       Well, Isaac, without the authority of scripture, and we talk about that, that’s a part of biblical worldview. We talk about it all the time and we know that this was some years ago, 30%, only 30% of even evangelical pulpits, those who called themselves evangelicals in our countries in country believed in the authority of scripture. Well, I mean 70% plus did not. Now what makes that difference? Well, in simple terms, if the word of God the Bible scripture is not authoritative, meaning that it is all true, all true, 100% no error. If it’s not all true, then you can’t count on anything being true and it therefore becomes a good book. But when you talk about the inspiration of scripture, it is far more inspiration of scripture. In two Timothy 3, 16, 17 talks about scripture being breathed out. It’s actually breathed out by the Holy Spirit. Distinctive, totally different than any book ever, ever written.

Sam Rohrer:       It’s the foundational part of it. And I think even Isaac, that’s why at the end of the day, once the authority, peace if that is thrown out, that’s what the devil did when he questioned Eve the garden ask, God said, what was he attacking God’s word? What was he questioning? The authority of God. Whenever we take God off of the truth and the authority, we’ve all of a sudden made it all about man, all about us, all about little G God, not the God. I think another aspect about it shows that’s helpful in this is that if we cannot believe the word of God, then we don’t know anything about life. Everything we know about God is written in God’s word. Everything we know about the past of importance is in God’s word. God’s plan of redemption is in God’s word, prophecy, fulfilled is in God’s word.

Sam Rohrer:       What is to happen is in God’s word. It is all. You cut out any part of it where you insert doubt and say, well, it’s not true, then now you can make up your own truth. That’s exactly what is happening. And I think there’s one verse I think that’s really significant. Psalm 1 68, 2 Scripture says, therefore says, for thou God has magnified thy word above all thy name. The name of God is above all names. We’re told in Philippians two, nine and 10 that God has given the name of Jesus and elevated it above. Even that is the name above all names. But in Psalms, he takes and says, my word is even above my name. That’s why it is so important. And if a person can find a way to say that God’s word is not all true, everything is off the table. So you cannot have salvation, you cannot have a knowledge of God. If in any way the word of God is replaced in any regard. So I’ll just leave it there, but it’s critical and

Isaac Crockett:   That’s why it’s foundational. You’re right. It all starts with that. You can’t have the rest of it unless we start with that. So I love that these other two, I think of the three we talked about inspiration, virgin birth and resurrection. The virgin birth is the one that maybe people say the most. Well, does it really matter? And of course they’re saying the virgin birth of Jesus, but really we’re talking about the conception that Mary never knew a man and that she conceived via the Holy Ghost this miraculous thing. Sam, why is that though still a foundational doctrine, the miraculous virgin conception of Jesus Christ?

Sam Rohrer:       It’s important, Isaac, because if Jesus is not God perfect, sinless, then he’s just a man and no man has an ability who man is sinful to offer himself as a sacrifice to be accepted by God as a payment for our sins, the penalty of which is death. So if Jesus is not God, there is no gospel, there is no God, there is no salvation, there is no justification that cuts the entire thing out if Jesus is not God. Of course that’s what the whole battle was when Jesus came the first time, the Pharisee leaders refused to believe that he was God. Oh, you’re of the devil, you’re of the devil. They could not admit that Jesus was God. And that’s the distinctive between whether a person ever becomes born again or rejects Jesus Christ and eternal life, it all comes down is Jesus God. Bible says, yes he is, and he proved it.

Isaac Crockett:   And then the one that then often logically follows the virgin birth or virgin conception of Jesus is, oh, he didn’t really die and raise again. Again, this is denying miraculous and there’s a lot of different miracles, but those are the two that they really focus in on after denying the inspiration of scripture. They often go to the virgin birth and then the resurrection of Jesus. That can’t happen. That’s not natural, that doesn’t abide by the rules of science as we know it. So therefore it couldn’t have happened. What’s wrong with that?

Sam Rohrer:       Well, what’s wrong about it is the Apostle Paul says in one Corinthians 15, if Jesus did not raise from the dead, our preaching is useless and our faith is of no value. And the apostle Paul again said in Romans 4 25 that if Jesus did not raise from the dead, there is no justification. He said he was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification. If Jesus did not rise from the dead, he didn’t prove that he was God and his sacrifice, his death on the cross was no different than the thief beside him, but he was God and he was the very son of God and he was buried. He died, he buried and he rose again proving that he alone is God. That’s what makes all the difference. You cut out any one of those, the authority scripture, the virgin birth or the resurrection, and you’ve completely gutted the Bible. And that is why Jesus can say the Bible said, there is one way to heaven. I am the way the truth in life. You cut out any of those, you are on the Broadway, which is what the world has been doing since the beginning, coming up with their own way. But there’s only one way You cut out any of those three pieces and you’ve made it a religion of man.

Isaac Crockett:   Well, and that’s saying it’s so important that we’re not a religion of man, but that we have our faith in Jesus Christ. And as we look at what’s going on at the United Methodist Church this week, a lot of people are going to focus on that. They change that they’re now being able to bless and allow homosexual orations and weddings and all of these sort of things. But what we’re talking about goes back to the 1920s, not 2020s, but the 1920s when they started saying, oh, you don’t have to really believe that the whole Bible is true. You don’t have to believe that Jesus was born of a virgin. You don’t have to believe that he died and rose again. They’re sowing those seeds of doubt, and that was at the root. That was the root problem a century ago. What we’re dealing with now, as you often say, and this Ken Ham often says, we’re dealing with the fruit from the bad root. We’re just about out of time for this segment. But Sam, I don’t, maybe in a couple seconds just you’ve already kind of like, well, you have identified it, but this really goes against what we teach about salvation, doesn’t it?

Sam Rohrer:       Well, Isaac, it is. What Jude talks about it are those who have crept in unawares made little changes, little changes become great changes. No amount of error is permissible, and anything remain truth. God’s word is true in every regard, and it definitely applies to these three things we’re talking about here.

Isaac Crockett:   Well, we’re not trying to pick on people if you’re a Methodist if you’re listening, but we do want to use this that’s unfolding right before our eyes right now as an object west and see what has gone on. Take a look at the root causes, not just at the fruit that we’re tempted to go after. Let’s look at the root of the issue, and we’re going to talk about that more when we come back. In this next segment, we’re going to hear from some of our partners come back on this nest next segment of Ask Sam Friday edition of Stand in the Gap today. Welcome back to the program. I’m Pastor Isaac Crockett. I’m Pastor East Lawrence Baptist Church, just a little south of Corning, New York, and a little over an hour north of Williamsport, Pennsylvania. And my co-host, it’s our regular host of the program, Sam Rohr, at our regular home base down in Elon, Pennsylvania is with me.

Isaac Crockett:   And if you want to, you can watch us on Facebook or on YouTube. We have the video up on Facebook and YouTube or especially on YouTube. I think you can get the link off of Facebook, but of you’re listening to us either on radio or podcast, we’re so thankful for you if you’re just tuning in. Our subject today that we’re asking Sam about has been the impact that modernism has had on the Methodist Church. And before we go back into asking Sam questions about that, I want to ask Tim, our program producer if he, Tim Schneider, could come up and talk to us a little bit about some of the things going on behind the scenes at the American Pastors Network and our Stand in the Gap Media Ministry.

Speaker 3:           Well, yeah, sure, Isaac, I can do that. Happy Friday afternoon everybody. Hopefully you’re doing well. Isaac mentioned that we are on YouTube, we are on Facebook, we are on X, formerly known as Twitter. We’re on all the social media platforms. One of them is our YouTube channels. We have three great YouTube channels, the American Pastors Network Stand in the Gap TV and Stand in the Gap radio, check them out to see our archives and all the great content being posted. If you were to go over to our American Pastors Network and or our Stand in Gap tv YouTube channels right now, you’d see a couple of TV programs, some recent programs. We had our God’s word and the Skeptics questions, A two-part series with Brian Osborne from Answers and Genesis. Also, we have a two-part series with AI technology and the Christian with Rebecca Angler from Answers and Genesis and lots of other great TV programs.

Speaker 3:           You can check them out at our YouTube channels, especially the TV programs on American Pastors Network and Stand in the Gap tv. Subscribe to these channels and you can search for them at American Pastors Network. Search for Stand in the Gap Radio and Stand in the Gap TV search and subscribe to these channels so you can be notified when new content is posted, and you’ll definitely find that a valuable resource. Also, we encourage you to please continue to pray for this ministry. Nothing happens without prayer. And yesterday was the National Day of Prayer. So once again, prayer is very important. We covet your prayers for this ministry. Also consider giving financially no amount too big, no amount too small is too much. If you’ve been blessed by this ministry and the Lord puts it on your heart, please consider giving to us. So those are the resources that I’ve got for today, Isaac, and I’ll go ahead and send it on back to you.

Isaac Crockett:   Great, thanks so much, Tim. Well, if you didn’t catch the beginning of our program today, you’re welcome to go back and listen in our archives through our Stand in the Gap app or our website that Tim was just talking about, but we’ve been talking about modernism and using kind of a case study, the United Methodist Church because this week in Charlotte they’ve had their general conference. It was, as I understand it, postponed from 2020 and they’re now having it 2024. And in that there’s been historic passage of all kinds of things, pro L-G-B-T-Q and allowing coordination and marriages that all of these things. But what we said at the beginning of the program is really, that’s the fruit of the problem. But the root problem goes back at least a century ago, at least a hundred years, around the turn of the century, and especially in the 1920s, there was a lot of modernism starting to infiltrate some of our denominations, including certain parts, minority parts of the Methodist Church.

Isaac Crockett:   And that started to grow and really get bigger even in the 1950s with some of what was going on. And Sam walked us through, we talked about modernism, how it denies inspiration of scripture. It takes a naturalistic approach saying everything happens naturally, evolution, et cetera, et cetera. And so they don’t believe in the inspiration of scripture. They attack that, they attack the virgin birth and conception of Jesus Christ, and then they attack the death, burial and resurrection. They don’t believe that Jesus Christ could rise again. And Suzanne walked us through the importance of those three doctrines and those really go into ultimately Jesus being the second Adam that came and he gave himself so that we could be redeemed through his death. We could be united to Jesus through God, through Jesus Christ, and dwell by the Holy Spirit really. So these things, if we’re not careful, this modernist approach will change the gospel so that it’s no longer the gospel and it changes everything. So same with that. We want to kind of fast forward now, we looked at almost a hundred years ago the Methodist Church. Now, fast forward to this week in 2024, some people, Sam, have been online saying they’re shocked at the direction that the United Methodist Church went. All of a sudden this year when you heard the changes, what was going to be voted on and then how easily it seemed to be passing, were you shocked? Were you surprised about what happened at the general conference, especially in regards to the L-G-B-T-Q teachings coming from them?

Sam Rohrer:       Excuse me. No, Isaac, I was not surprised because, and why can we not be surprised? I don’t think you probably were surprised either. And the reason is, is because scripture tells us that when we set aside the truth and we entertain anything other than exactly what the word of God says, back to authority of scripture, the end will not be good because anything, any smallest departure from what the word of God is, questioning who God is, questioning God’s authority, questioning God’s model for marriage, for human sexuality, going all the way back to creation, questioning how we got, like you already referred to any of those, that move from what God’s word says is already putting you on the path to air It really, once that happens, it’s not a matter of, it’s not a matter of where you’re going to end up. It may matter may determine how fast you end up there, but you’re going to end up at a place where ultimately God himself is denied.

Sam Rohrer:       The word of God is just absolutely nothing more than a nice book. And as we’ve seen Jesus, well, he’s not God. He was just a nice man. I mean, all of these things, the Bible says you depart in one iota, one change of scripture, the end is certain and that end is death, and that end is a complete rejection of all that God’s word says. So no, the fact that it’s taken a hundred years to me shows how slippery the slope can be and how incremental like that frog in the boiling water can take a while, depends on how fast you turn up the heat, but he’s going to boil if you got the heat on. And that’s really what we’re talking about here. Sad to see, but not surprised to see.

Isaac Crockett:   Well, Sam, as I watch some of this conference, and you and I have read articles and things on it as well, but I saw they had these people up there talking to them, warning them ahead of time to be aware of some of the changes that were going on. And they even warned them not to use, I think it was like male pronouns for God not to refer to God in the male form. They cheered when they selected their committee representation, their leadership, I forget how many hundreds of people, but it was 51% female, 1%, and I think it was like 13 people that 1% included non-binary and then the rest, 40 something percent, 48% or whatever it was, white or male. And they cheered for that. They cheered that they had selected a number of non-binary quote non-binary members. And then we talked about how now they’ve moved their historic rejection of Q to an acceptance of it.

Isaac Crockett:   And as I was watching and talking with you, Sam, I said, it really seems like it’s more than just accepting of L-G-B-T-Q, but a pushing, it’s accepting, affirming, and now even really pushing that agenda the way they cheered for the non-binary part in things. Just real quickly here, we only have a few minutes, three or four minutes, but what are maybe some of the lessons that we can take away from watching that, that we can learn about what is going on? You already mentioned that slippery slope that starts when we start to question doctrines, orthodoxy and inspiration.

Sam Rohrer:       Well, there are a couple of principles come to my mind, Isaac, the book of Romans chapter one lays it out where the apostle Paul starts at the beginning, starts with the revelation of God and how God has made his fingerprints evident in all of creation. And he has communicated the truth in many ways, the printed word of God being the most complete and in our hands. But the Apostle Paul makes it clear that if people deny and say, well, God wasn’t the creator, and oh this tree or whatever, whatever is maybe God himself, all the stuff that we have seen in the past, they will get to the point where God will say, I’ve been patient with you long enough. I’ve been merciful to you. And if you continue to reject and reject and reject, God says, then I will turn you over. And when a person’s turned over to me, there’s nothing worse that can possibly happen because at that juncture, God says, I’m no longer going to extend the mercy to you.

Sam Rohrer:       You denied the truth that I made available to you long enough you will now reap the results. And the results of that are is that you have a clenched in the sexual of sins of all type, and Romans one calls them out. And not only then the Bible says when that happens, they’re never satisfied for the level of sin in which they are, where other people are. They expect other people to first well not condemn them, and then they soon the Bible says are to the point where they want other people to actually participate and sanction the sins, sins being the opposite of what God said to do. All these things are represented in God’s moral law. So that’s where it is. So that is one thing that we can learn. We can’t entertain sin in the smallest degree, and if we do the patience of God, the mercy of God will run out. And when that happens, then internal destiny is that’s how serious it is.

Isaac Crockett:   It’s very serious. And as we watch the numbers declining in the United Methodist Church as the global Methodist Church, a lot are breaking off and joining that. It’s also been interesting that the international members of the Methodist Church have kept it more conservative of much of this time. So there’s things happening, they’re changing that. But ultimately as we look at that, you’re right, it’s sliding away from that biblical worldview that standard we need. We’re going to take another time out here. I have some more questions for you, Sam. We’re going to ask Sam some more questions, but maybe you’re wondering, am I in a church that has a biblical worldview? Am I in a biblical church or am I in a church that’s accepting some of these things we’ve just talked about? So we want to look at that before we go. Then we also want to pray.

Isaac Crockett:   Yesterday day of prayer, we spent much of the program in prayer for our nation. David would like to still close, praying for our pastors, for the pulpits, for our churches. We’ll be right back on Stand in the Gap today. Welcome back to the program, and as we wrap up this Friday edition, this Ask Sam edition of Stand in the Gap Today, I want to encourage you, no matter where you are, look for a biblical church. Look for a church that preaches the word of God, that believes that the Bible is the word of God, that it is inspired. And then if you find a church like that, get involved. Bring people, help out where you can do what you can to be a part of that. And if you’re pastoring a church like that, take heart. Be encouraged that doing God’s word is always God’s work is always worth it.

Isaac Crockett:   I want to finish encouraging you that way. And we’ve talked about the Methodist church and some of the issues going on that have been very public this week. And again, I’m not here to try to pick on people from that, but we are here to kind of diagnose what has happened and the slippery slope that they’ve gone down. And so Sam, maybe somebody’s listening today and they’re wondering about their own church. They’re wondering, am I in a biblical church or not? What would you say to somebody listening if they can tell if they’re in a biblical church or one that’s maybe accepted some of these modernist teachings we talked about here in our program today?

Sam Rohrer:       Well, Isaac, where we went here earlier in the program are where the essentials on those three areas of the authority of God’s word. If the Bible is not the final authority from the preaching, from the pulpit to application in things that are implemented within the church, if the emphasis is not there on God’s word alone, then there’s a problem. And therefore that is a red flag to say you can’t be there. The second one, if the virgin birth, if the gospel is not ever preached or it’s kind of like, well put your offerings in the plate, then as long as you do that, then you’re going to go to heaven or go out this week and do a lot of good deeds, but not talk about salvation needing to come first, where your works are in evidence of your faith, then there is a problem and the gospel is not being preached if the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the grave is never taught, never heard, never emphasized, and the word justification for our sins is not there or faith in Jesus Christ alone by the work of Jesus Christ on the truth cemented by his resurrection from the grave.

Sam Rohrer:       If those things are not taught, then the gospel is not being taught in. What’s the Bible say about that? Well, what is there is a false religion and what is being done is what the scripture would say would be a higherling in the pulpit perhaps that never really warns the sheep about the wolf in the street. That sinful thing that’s going after the souls of men as an example. I’m just condensing a lot. But those would be the be the three. And so upon those, it ought to be very, very clear. Now, I’d also offer this, Isaac, I remember many people say, well, what should I do? Well, first you got to analyze what we’re talking about. And secondly, it’s the idea that as individuals, God, when we stand before the Lord, each of us will stand individually. And when I stand before the Lord, I’m going to give an account for what I’ve said, for what I’ve done for the choices that I’ve made. And it’s not going to be acceptable. It’s not an excuse ever standing before the Lord to say, well, you know what? The church I went to, the pastor never preached that and therefore blame it on him. No, you can’t do that. God gives us the knowledge to understand and evaluate ourselves. So Isaac, we must make a decision for ourself, and that is, are we getting the truth or not? And it zeroes down to those core three items we just talked about.

Isaac Crockett:   Well, Sam and I want to be cognizant of our time. We’re winding down. I want to give you time to pray for our pastors or pulpits or churches before we close. But many of our listeners have probably experienced similar things that you and I have experienced. When you start to take a stand for what the Bible says, people say, oh, you’re, you’re mean. You’re, you’re old fashioned, and they accuse us of those sort of things being insensitive or whatever. What would you say to somebody today who’s being accused like that by their family, by maybe even people in their church and they’re trying to take a stand for the truth of the word of God. What do you say to encourage that person?

Sam Rohrer:       Well, I would encourage that person by saying upon what do you hold? If it is the word of God, and it’s the word of God only, and it is the three things we talked about, word of God is authoritative. Jesus was born of a virgin. He did die on the cross and was buried and rose again for our sins. If that is narrow, then take it as a badge of honor because Jesus said, I am the way, the truth in the life. No man comes unto the Father, but by me. And he describes there is a broad way that leads to destruction, but narrow is the way. And few there be that find it according to the world, Isaac Jesus is too narrow and God is too restrictive. So if we’re anchored on God’s word and we can cite the verses for what we believe, then if somebody says, you’re narrow-minded, say, well, thank you. I try to act as much as I can and believe exactly what the word of God says. I mean, I would take it as a badge. I would not be offended.

Isaac Crockett:   I like that, Sam. It’s good because we’re going to get that more and more. The Bible says that if we follow Jesus, there will be times where we will be persecuted and we are blessed when we are the poor, the hungry, the hated. And we said, well, that’s not a blessing. But in God’s kingdom, in God’s economy, it is because it means we’re doing what is right. And look what they did to Jesus. They accused him of those sort of things. So we want to follow after him, not to be jerks to people, not to bring it upon ourselves on our own unwittingly, but when we follow after Jesus, if we get accused, if we get persecuted, then you’re right. That should be a badge of honor, if you would, but that we are following after our master. Well, Sam, I’d love to have you give any final thoughts you have and then close this program in prayer.

Sam Rohrer:       Okay, Isaac. Well, thanks for that. And first, I want to compliment you for focusing on this subject today and being sensitive to this. I think it’s such a critical issue, and I just really pray that it has been helpful to people who have been listening and watching today. So I’ll just close here. Heavenly Father, Lord, we’re thankful that we have the freedom yet, although even that’s under attack to be able to communicate the truth here in means of video and radio, would pray for those who are listening today and have heard this program, that they would be moved of your spirit to analyze and consider well where their feet are anchored. Lord, if it’s on a foundation of truth, your word, we will never be moved. Though the world attacks, we will not be moved. And Lord, we know that when you came, they rejected you because they did not want to recognize that you were God.

Sam Rohrer:       But Lord, you were, you are and you’ve offered salvation to all. And then you’ve given us the word of God to guide us and really speak to every issue of life. So I pray that those who are listening, who do know you, a savior would increasingly day by day when confronted by the things in this world that are so confusing and just falling apart, that we would have clarity of mind, a confidence to walk surely in a dark world. And Lord, you’ve told us you’d walk with us, you’d give us exactly what we need, and we pray that when that happens, Lord, I thought the light will shine and that’s why we’re here. And we just pray we’d be busy about your business until you come believing, Lord, that your return really is at the door. And for that, we are excited. In Jesus’ name, amen.

Isaac Crockett:   Amen. Amen. Thank you for that. Sam. Thank you for listening. And as you were listening today, and hopefully you were able to catch up the program yesterday, the day of Prayer and National Day of Prayer and talking through some of that and praying for a nation. But hopefully when you see these things in the news, you won’t be discouraged, but you’ll be encouraged to go to your knees and pray for the Lord to forgive us. Pray for the Lord to empower us. If you do know the truth, believe the truth, and then share it. Go out and make disciples. Jesus says, of all the things that he has taught us. So we want to speak up, we want to speak out. We want to stand in the gap for truth wherever we are. So I thank you so much for listening. I thank you for your prayers and support of this ministry, and until next time, but stand in the gap, all of us, wherever we are, for God’s truth.