Meeting the Signers of the U.S. Constitution

Meeting the Signers of the U.S. Constitution

May 8, 2025

Host: Hon. Sam Rohrer

Co-host: Pastor Matt Recker

Guest: Att. David New

Note: This transcript is taken from a Stand in the Gap Today program aired on 5/8/25. To listen to the podcast, click HERE.

Disclaimer: While reasonable efforts have been made to provide an accurate transcription, the following is a representation of a mechanical transcription and as such, may not be a word for word transcript. Please listen to the audio version for any questions concerning the following dialogue.

Sam Rohrer:

Hello and welcome to this Thursday edition of Stand In the Gap Today and it’s also our bimonthly emphasis on the Constitution and American history and this we do almost exclusively with our special guest, recurring guest, constitutional attorney historian and author David New Now in just a few weeks because in the month of May, we’re going to celebrate Memorial Day. It’s a time of reflection of past events and people that we do not want to forget a month later. Then we’re going to celebrate as we know the birth of our nation on July the fourth, which formally began this nation in the Declaration of Independence, which 56 men signed and by so signing literally placed a death sentence and a death sentence target on their backs and that of their family by the way, and did what the ruling British government declared to be treason. That was a major event.

We have no idea what it cost these men now in September then we’ll celebrate the signing of the US Constitution, which consolidated the principles declared in the declaration and embodied the Christian and biblical world of view that undergirded our earliest founders and framers and actually was the motivation that drove the signers of the declaration, George General Washington then who led our armies against the British. All of that were involved and continued through and then ultimately came the Constitution where 39 signers signed that in September, 1787. Today on this program co-host Pastor Matt Recker from Manhattan, New York City and I will talk with constitutional attorney David New about the religious views of the signers of our constitution and then look specifically at least two of them in segments three and four. Now it’s interesting that both liberal and conservatives in our modern day claim that the Constitution is under attack and I think it is some claim it is on life support.

In some respects, they would be right. Amazingly left-wing pundits and critics have suddenly shown an interest in the Constitution. In the past, leftists political leftists generally have shown an attitude of indifference, if not hostility toward the Constitution and many claim it’s a racist document. How absurd. Right now today we’re going to learn some interesting facts about the signers of the Constitution. For instance, did you know that one of them was indicated by the United States or indicted rather? I would say he was indicated but he was indicted for treason and he later had a major city in America named in his honor. Well, in our discussions today, we will for the most part examine the religious background of the signers of the Constitution and demonstrate that regardless of what some would like to believe the signers of the Constitution did not intend that the United States would ever become a secular state. The title I’ve chosen for today’s focus is this Meeting the Signers of the US Constitution. And with that, David, welcome back to the program. Glad to have you back.

David New:

Well, it’s so nice to be with you and blessings to everyone that’s with us today.

Sam Rohrer:

And David, before we get into the specific focus of today’s program, there’s a headline issue that’s hanging out that we’ve referred to it the last time you were on. Explain just a little bit about it, but it deals with this. It’s a case dealing with parental rights. It’s from the county of Montgomery in Maryland and it’s a Mahmud versus Taylor’s the name of the case, but it concerns the Montgomery County Public Schools forcing children to learn about other genders, homosexuality specifically I think in this case, but it’s a matter of parental rights, but that issue of parental rights is rising all across the country. Your thoughts on this specific one that’s coming up and focuses on this matter of parental authority, family authority here in Maryland?

David New:

Yes, Montgomery County, Maryland is a home to me. My office was there for many, many years, so I love this whole area besides Washington DC I practice law in Maryland as well as DC and this is a shameful thing that parents have to go to the US Supreme Court to protect their children from the gay indoctrination. I am very sad to say I want to make one thing clear. I do believe God loves homosexuals just as much as anybody else and he wants them to repent of their sin and to come home to him in heaven. God loves them so we should love them. I’m not interested in being cruel or I don’t believe in cruelty to homosexuals or abusing them and physically or emotionally in any way. That being said, children and homosexuals should be kept as far apart as possible. There is no need to include anything about homosexuality in the public schools, absolutely no need for it.

And make no mistake, this business of teaching children, some of these are like the pre-kindergarten and head astart program. The book that Montgomery County wanted to give those kids was called Pride Puppy by Robin Stevenson where a girl and her family were celebrating Pride Day. That means gay liberation day I guess for kindergartners to fifth grade. They have a book called Uncle Bobby’s Wedding by Sarah Brenner. And this is about a little girl who has a Uncle Bobby. She loves Uncle Bobby, but Uncle Bobby is getting ready to get married to James and she’s worried that Uncle Bobby won’t love her anymore. This is the kind of junk that these schools want to use and indoctrinate these children to corrupt them. And of course, make no mistake, I’m sure the Montgomery Public schools aren’t trying to use this as a recruitment, but there’s no question that in the greater homosexual community they do see this kind of stuff as a recruitment tool to get more homosexuals, more homosexual partners available to them. It’s not clear how many different sexual homosexuals have each year, how many partners, but some estimates go around 50. I’ve seen larger numbers and I’ve seen smaller numbers. 50 seems to be a fairly common number, 50 different sex partners. Needless to say ladies and gentlemen, this is not healthy

Sam Rohrer:

David. Obviously it’s not and we could go much further, but in a little bit of research for here, I just brought up a case that was before the court. It was an amicus brief that was filed that came out of North Carolina, but it went to Supreme Court and it was back in 2000. It was about the same thing and in the head of it, the beginning of it started right out by saying this, we believe in protecting children from those who would destroy their innocence and exploit them for their own purposes. On the whole, parents are the best protectors of children and have the natural right and duty for the care, custody and control of their children. And then it goes on to build the case further that they were making In regards to ladies and gentlemen, we know that the matter of parental authority, parents directing the upbringing of their children both in education and where they go and what they’re taught is a God-given, right?

That’s right off the pages of scripture. So at the heart it goes to anything that would seek to violate that undergirds the view of scripture. And that takes us right into our next part where we’re going to talk about and look at the religious view, the world worldviews of the signers of our constitution because it does make a difference what you believe about God and what he says. Well, if you’re just joining us, thanks for being on board. Today is our bimonthly program, our emphasis. We do it bimonthly, meaning twice a month. Every other Thursday we do it on the theme of the US Constitution, American history and things related to that. And we always it. It’s just been something that we’ve done on this program really from its inception many years ago. And that’s with constitutional attorney David New. Now a theme today, our title to frame, what we’re going to talk about.

So if you’re just joining us, we’re going to meet in particular a couple of the signers of the US Constitution in specifics, but generally we’re going to get a frame of who they were. They were a long time ago obviously, but we need to know about them because what they thought made a difference in what they did. Now, David, in many past programs you’ve mentioned that you’ve nearly completed a book that you’re writing about the founding of our nation and religious views held by our founders, and there are many books out there like that, but I know yours is different. You’ve actually permitted me to read a draft copy for which I am glad. But in that book, one of the points that you argue, which I and others have noted routinely, we do it on this program and I’ve written and spoken about it as well as that our earliest founders, for instance like William Penn here from Pennsylvania, I’ve written a book on that about him and what he believed he was way back then.

It moves up through time. You got the 56 signers of our declaration, refer to them in the first segment. Then you got the 32 signers of the US Constitution, which is our focus today and other, there were early justices of the courts where they made statements, they did things that were very, very clear that they had a fear of God and they made evident that they had a commitment to advancing the Christian faith, which those words is exactly what’s contained. For instance, in our first organic document of law, the Mayflower Compact. So despite the efforts by secular humanness of the day and history of revisionists seeking to destroy the foundation of our nation, our founders and framers clearly did not envision a secular state or a government of secular laws or a nation who embraced anything other than a Judeo Christian view of God and government. Now I’ve put my thoughts into that, but I know it’s your thoughts, but get into the details, share a bit of the history and the facts that you’ve uncovered that undergird the conclusion to which you’ve come. That supports the claim that the signers of our US constitution and their expressed views would preclude, did not ever envision a secular state in America.

David New:

Absolutely for one thing, they never even talked about a secular state. Not one time during the record of the constitutional convention did they even use the word secular. The federalist papers never used the term secular state or secular. They had no idea what it was. The idea didn’t even exist at the time. That’s how bad the secularists have been with the history of this country. They are reckless with it because they are attributing to these men things that didn’t even exist at the time. The title of my book is A History of a Christian Nation, is the United States, a secular state, and I deal with the religious heritage of this country from a legal point of view, legal documents. Now here’s one of the interesting things about these 39 signers of the Constitution. When you know their background, they had no idea what a secular state was when they established the Constitution, they established a civil government, not a secular state, and they believed that that civil government should be a theistic state, which is very different from a theocratic state.

We’ve talked about this before on prior shows. Now let me read to you a summary of an appendix where I take all 39 signers and give their religious activity. And before I did that, I gave a summary of all these 39 people. And when you read this summary, I think it’s going to indicate to you these people were not secularists. Let me go directly from my book. Two signers of the US constitution said the law of God was supreme over man’s law. Four other signers were presidents, vice presidents or managers of Bible societies. Three signers wanted Christianity spread throughout the world. One of them said, the knowledge of God should cover the earth as the waters cover the sea. Those of you who honor God’s prophetic word know this comes from the book of Habak, the second chapter in verse 14, we know when this will be fulfilled.

Then I go on to say, one signer wrote a book to prove the Bible was scientifically accurate. Five said America should confess her sins to God. One said the Holy Spirit should guide America. Three wanted Christianity taught in the schools. One signer wrote a law that effectively put prayer in the Bible, in the public schools nationwide. Another signer made that same law. A federal law at least three freed their slaves because of Christianity. One gave Acts 10 34 as a reason to do it, another Congress to end slavery because of the Christian religion. Another signer wanted to use tax money to buy all the slaves in the United States to free them. Another said the Bible should be a law book for the US government. One signer listed key passages in the Bible to support ratification of the constitution. Two started the state college that required all teachers to be Christian. One helped to compile the book of Common Prayer for the Protestant Episcopal church in America. Another sign was asked by a church to deal with a pastor who predicted Jesus Christ would return. In 1796. Two signers said America was a free Protestant English settlement. Ladies and gentlemen, these facts do not suggest secularism at all. These people were creationists. Charles Darwin had yet to be born. They all believed God governs in the affairs of the world, including government.

Matt Recker:

That’s a very powerful listing of some of the signers and their views of God. Wow, David, thank you. And from what you’ve said, the role of government and the leaders of government therefore was to clearly encourage and to advance the fear of God as they themselves had faith and fear in the Lord. They believed that the role of government was to advance God’s moral laws and God’s view and concept of government. And yet the Constitution they signed, it was clear that the federal government’s role was really a limited role. The constitution limits the rights of the federal government. So can you expand upon how they viewed the role of government in advancing the biblical worldview of morality, religion, and law as well as they embraced a limited view of the government’s role?

David New:

Absolutely. That’s a good question. The Constitution, the US Constitution has very little to say about religion, and I’m sad to say that our secular neighbors have misinterpreted that to mean the framers were not interested in religion. That is a misinterpretation. Here’s what the framers did. They took the subject of religion off out of the US Constitution. They left it to the states. That’s where religious issues and debates and all kinds of things, whatever were to be decided at the state level. Sadly, our secular friends will not accept that explanation, but insist that they meant it to be secular, which they did not. So the US Constitution has very little to say about religion only because the authority over religion was left to the states. If you look at Article one, section eight, which lists the powers of Congress, which I call in my book, the Constitution for Beginners, the Big Enchilada.

And if you look at that list, you will not find anything about religion, nothing. And that is deliberate because Congress was worried that one or two states might get together and force their church state on the rest of the nation to make sure that doesn’t happen. The federal government has no enumerated power over religion, but they did not mean the Constitution should be godless because what was the very first thing the first Congress did? What was one of the first things they did? They hired chaplains for the US House and chaplains for the US Senate to pray for the United States government and the members of Congress out of that first Congress 16. In the first half of that Congress and the first session, each Congress has two sessions. The first session there were 16 members, 16 members that signed the US Constitution that were in the first session and they approved congressional chaplains, which proves they were not secular. You cannot have a secular state paying government ministers. That’s crazy.

Sam Rohrer:

Alright, David, good question, Matt. Good answer, David and say, ladies and gentlemen, there is no conflict. There is no conflict. Our founders did express a broad majority worldview of God as laid out in scripture. It is all over including Bible verses all over government buildings. And the Constitution was put in place to enshrine that, but not to give government too much power. We’ll come back. We’re going to look at a signer, George Washington. All right, well just a brief reference to that one spot. It’s a new one. You heard in that break that we just had there where we gave an emphasis to memorizing scripture and the first verse we’re starting with is from Jude 24 and 25. Again, if you just maybe didn’t catch all the programs this week or maybe didn’t miss or didn’t catch what I had said, but I just want to just emphasize it here so you understand that there’s an emphasis that we are wanting to begin to make on this program that is to encourage all of our listeners along with ourselves to memorize scripture.

So we have chosen a number of verses that you will hear. All of them are very specific. They’re easy to memorize, but attached with a little bit of an emphasis, they’re going to be for different things. Like this week on Jude 24 and 25, it’s a focus on God himself unto him who is able to keep you from falling. What a thought. But whenever we memorize scripture and act upon it, it will renew our mind. Next week when we hear it, it’s going to be, it’ll be one from Psalms that talks about hiding the word of God in our heart, that we might not sin against God, our emphasis on authority of scripture here. Without it, we wouldn’t have a program. That is where we go all the time. You know that if you’re listening to us, but knowing God’s word is in part, memorizing it so that we can act upon that which God has given and there’s so many blessings that come with it.

So just be aware of that. You’ll hear it. There’ll be the same emphasis for five days for a week, and then the next week there will be another one, and then the following week, then there’ll be a different one. That’s going to be the pattern, but we’re introducing this for a very specific reason. The memorization of God’s word brings extraordinary blessings and safety and so much more so just as a heads up to be aware. Alright, the first signer, or not actually the first sign, I actually don’t know where he is in the listing, but he is a signer. He was our first president, that’s George Washington of the original 13 colonies or states, only 12 actually sent delegates to that convention and that was Rhode Island. So there is no one from the state of Rhode Island that are a part of the 39, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania where I am sitting right now in our home studio has the most signers.

With eight being represented. Virginia was the next of Commonwealth of Virginia. They had seven the least obviously was Rhode Island because they had none. As I just mentioned, New Hampshire had only two and then others were spread throughout. Each of the signers have a unique history and a very interesting story about each one of them, which we could spend many programs. And David referred to that in his book. He comments on them. But for the balance of this program today, let’s focus on just a couple that stand out to you, David. I know that first one, as I mentioned is George Washington. Now can you share some insightful information that gives us a view into the mind and the actions of a most revered president? He was a wonderful man, George Washington as it relates to his view of God and the Christian religion in America.

David New:

Absolutely. Before I do that, I want to reinforce what you just said about memorizing scripture. Ladies and gentlemen, the power is taking scripture and memorizing it and let it marinate in your soul and your spirit. If you have trouble memorizing things, be patient with yourself. Remember, the most powerful communication in the universe is prayer. And when you incorporate your memory of scripture in your prayer, you are absolutely putting your prayer on spiritual steroids. George Washington, George Washington was the president of the Constitutional Convention. So if anybody would know that the United States should be a secular state, it would be George. Now listen to this. George Washington was not just the first president, but he was president of the Constitutional Convention. And there are two instances, two times he is on record supporting moral and religious instruction in schools. The first was a proposed state law by Patrick Henry, dated January 1st, 1784, a bill that called for Virginia to support the Christian religion in school and the sheriff was to collect the taxes to pay for all this on property taxes.

He was to go out and get all the money together. George Washington on October 3rd, 1785 supported Patrick Henry’s bill. That’s the first time George Washington is on record teaching religion in a school. The second time occurred in August 7th, 1789. This is when the United States Constitution was now in force. George Washington had taken the oath of office on April 30th, 1789. He was not president of all 13 states at that time. He was only president of 11 of the 13 because North Carolina had not ratified the Constitution when he became president. Neither had Rhode Island, but he was the first president. Of course, during his later on, he does become president of all 13 states. But on August 7th, Congress sent him a bill 1789, known as the Northwest Ordinance. David Barton, God bless him, made this law well known in the public community throughout the nation. Listen to this law. And George Washington signed this law. It said religion, morality, knowledge being necessary to good government.

Now, what secularists would ever say something like that, religion, morality and knowledge being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind. Schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged. Right there in that article three of the Northwest Ordinance is federal law. And this law had a profound impact on the history of the United States. One of the reasons prayer and Bible lasted for 170 years in this country is because of this law. The Northwest arguments. A lot of people think the Christian Church put religion in the public schools baloney. It was the federal government that did it. It was this law that did it. Let’s give you an example. Take the state of Nebraska. It doesn’t become a state until 1867 after the Civil War. But in 1919 0 3 and 1902, there was a issue about a lady who was teaching things according to the Orthodox Evangelical Church and the Supreme Court in Nebraska said, no, no, no, no, you cannot teach sectarian religion in the public schools.

Now, the public was concerned that they had removed the Bible in prayer from public schools the following year. They said, no, we did no such thing. We only said that Ms. Beecher cannot teach the Orthodox evangelical church doctrine in her classroom, but you can continue to have the Bible and prayer as you wish. Now look at this. When the court wanted to justify when they wanted to justify having religion in the public schools, what law did they cite 100 years earlier to justify it? The Northwest Ordinance Article three, because the state of Nebraska had incorporated in their bill of Rights, which you can go to today. Go to Article one, section seven of the Nebraska Bill of Rights. And it says this, religion, morality and knowledge, however, being essential to good government, it shall be the duty of the legislature to pass suitable laws to protect every denomination, the peaceable enjoyment of its own public worship and to encourage schools and the means of instruction. So here’s George Washington in 1789, signing a federal law that is now being quoted in a state constitution, repeated in a state constitution in 1903 to have prayer in the Bible and their public schools, the secular state, the churches put religion in school. In the beginning, that was true before there was a federal government, but what really did it coast to coast was King George Welch, maybe I shouldn’t say King George, George Washington, president of the United States.

Sam Rohrer:

David, that was a great discourse and it interesting that you said King George because one of the facts about George Washington, a lot of folks don’t know, was that there were some, after we had won the victory, God had given to victory over the British to England, that some actually suggested to George Washington that he would become king. And he said, no way, I’m not going to do that. And so always, ladies and gentlemen, there’s always throughout history, those in government and the people who are governed need to recalibrate themselves regularly. And it always started with what did the Bible say? What does God say? And then it went to the Constitution to reflect that. And so those in office, and I’m going to suggest the reason we’re so far away from the Bible and the Constitution today is because both the people and the people in government, well, they haven’t been recalibrating themselves according to what does God say and what does the Constitution say?

But it started on a strong foundation. We’ll be back with the second example, second signer. David, we have a lot yet to cover. Only have one last segment here. Let’s go into this second example from the state of New Jersey, which is this signer you’re going to talk about. There were five signers from New Jersey of the Constitution that was the signers of the Constitution, and one of those was a fellow by the name of Jonathan Dayton. Would you share what you found about him that would give some insight into his view of God and the Christian religion as we are putting into this program here today?

David New:

Yes. Jonathan Dayton was the youngest member of the Constitutional convention. You’ll see either he was recorded as being 25 or 26. There’s some dispute about that. But he has a very controversial past. He was very, very wealthy. He was a very wealthy young man. Now, one of the things that he did that involved religion was it concerns a gentleman by the name of Pastor David Austin of the Presbyterian Church in Elizabethtown, New Jersey. Pastor David Austin was very interested in Bible prophecy, but upon some point he got scarlet fever and that illness affected his mind in a very adverse way. And so he started going off the deep end. He predicted that Jesus Christ would return in the month of May, 1796. And of course, the whole church was all excited that this was going to happen and they all got ready for the Lord’s return. But of course, it did not happen in May of 1796. It hasn’t happened yet. But stick around, ladies and gentlemen, the best is yet to come as Pastor David

Sam Rohrer:

Gary Dahl,

David New:

Gary Dahl. Yes, exactly. Now what happened was when it didn’t happen, he started to make all kinds of extreme claims. So he said something like this to his church. He said that he was appointed by God to bring in the glorious millennial reign of righteousness. Well, this got to be a bit too much for the church. So who do they pick to form a committee and to deal with Pastor David Austin? None other than our signer of the US Constitution, Jonathan Dayton. So this guy is a creationist. He is very much into the Bible and he is going to have to make a decision along with the committee what to do with this preacher who seems to be a little bit overwhelmed. Anyway, the end line was Pastor David Austin had to resign his position from the church. Now, what’s interesting about Jonathan Dayton, his career doesn’t quite end there.

Later on, he was indicted by the United States government for treason. One of the siders of the Constitution was indicted for treason. He was accused of participating in the Aaron Burr conspiracy, a lot of debates about what was he doing. But the general idea was Aaron Burr wanted to break off west of the Mississippi and form a new country for himself as being the head of it and all this kind of stuff. And allegedly Jonathan Dayton was part of that. And his role was to write secret coded letters to promote and encourage the conspiracy on. Well, when the trial came up against Aaron Burr, which Thomas Jefferson was president at the time, and he hated Aaron Burr, and Aaron Burr hated Thomas Jefferson. One good thing that Aaron Burr had in his favor was the chief justice of the United States. He and Jefferson didn’t like each other at all.

And so Aaron Burr was able to get off. He won the case by the two witness rule. They couldn’t come. The United States could not come up with two witnesses to verify that Aaron Burr is part of the conspiracy. That rule can be found in Deuteronomy 1915. And it also can be found in Article three to the US Constitution, which is where we got it. Well, when the case in chief against Aaron Burr failed that all of his alleged lieutenants, the cases against them were dropped. So the case was dropped against Jonathan Dayton. Well, things didn’t end quite there for him there either, because later on there’s a city in the United States called Dayton, Ohio, which was named in honor of him. And the reason why they named their city after Jonathan Dayton is because Jonathan Dayton was very wealthy and he owned a large amount of land in the greater Dayton, Ohio area, the Western territories. The Western lands was a highly speculative area where people tried to get rich quick. It was the Nasdaq of its day. So here it is a modern city, Dayton, Ohio, named after a signer of the Constitution who was accused of treason.

Matt Recker:

Well, such interesting stories. And though they feared God, I guess they weren’t all perfect kind of like us, but David John Adams powerfully said that we have no government armed with power, capable of contending with human passions, unbridled by morality and religion. In other words, government isn’t going to hold back man from living out its sinful nature. And Adams went on and he said that avarice or greed, ambition, revenge, would break the strongest chords of our constitution. Just like a whale can easily go through a net. And then this is such a great statement by Adams, and I’ve heard it over the years and I love it. He said, our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. So in light of Adam’s statements, how do you evaluate the strength of our constitution today and the state of America today as well?

David New:

I wish Secularists would pay attention to that quote by the second President of the United States. It is an excellent quote because it basically says, for the Constitution to work, we must, as American citizens, police ourselves, there must be internal controls within us so that you don’t need lots of police around to control you. That’s why it’s very important that religion and the Constitution go together.

Sam Rohrer:

And David, I could quote from my book, ladies and gentlemen that I’ve written, you can find her on Amazon. We’ve written that roadmap to renewal. But one of the statements made by William Penn and others that were of that error that laid the foundation for those that came forward as the 56 signers of the declaration and then from beyond that was a comment that about the 10 Commandments. And that unless a person, individuals, civilians, individuals committed themselves voluntarily to carry out and obey the 10 commandments of God and those in government do it as well, this holy experiment in freedom that Penn said would come about and it did God happen. He said it can never happen. So it goes to the heart again of what we are saying. We’ve been given something great, but it will not retain and remain great unless you and I and those in government, which right now is not happening.

Know what God’s word says and voluntarily constrain our actions and our choices accordingly. And that goes back to our emphasis we’re wanting to put forward of memorizing scripture. And that all ties together when we understand the big picture. David New, thank you so much for being with us, that great information, encouraging, enlightening in all regard. And Pastor Matt Recker from New York City, God bless you. Thanks for being here as well. And ladies and gentlemen, thank you for being a part of this program together. I pray that the Lord will take even one part of what you have heard, apply it and stand in the gap for truth a little better than perhaps even today.