The Church & Its Role and Limits in Our Constitutional System

Host: Hon. Sam Rohrer

Guest: David New

Note: This transcript is taken from a Stand in the Gap Today program aired on 4/2/26. To listen to the podcast, click HERE.

Disclaimer: While reasonable efforts have been made to provide an accurate transcription, the following is a representation of a mechanical transcription and as such, may not be a word for word transcript. Please listen to the audio version for any questions concerning the following dialogue.

Sam Rohrer:

Hello and welcome to this Thursday edition of Stand in the Gap today. And it’s also our bimonthly focus on the constitution and US history with recurring guest David New, who is a constitutional attorney, historian, author, and public speaker. So if you’ve listened to this program before, you know very well my guests today and going to get involved in a topic today I think will be of great interest. So stay tuned. Now, a little bit of background. Throughout the history of human civilization, governments have come and gone. Systems of governance have varied greatly. And under generally accepted definition of types of government, did a little research here just to kind of frame what we’re talking about today. But as of today, there are officially 195 sovereign nations. Now of these, two are regarded as theocracies and are represented by Vatican City. And interestingly enough, Iran. Five to six nations are regarded as one party states, and they include such nations as China, Cuba, Vietnam, and North Korea.

43 are regarded as monarchies. And they include such nations as the UK, Japan, Saudi Arabia, and Thailand. Then the majority of the 150 that are left are regarded as republics, and they include such nations as the United States, France, Germany, India, and Brazil. Yet in this last category, clearly there’s a wide variance. There’s a major difference, of course, between these various nations, these 150 that say they are republics. And that difference is not just the power of the words of their respective constitution, which makes it a republic, but how that document is interpreted. For instance, in terms of political science and analysis, the classification of governments today depends upon how you look at what’s referred to as their constitutional form. That means the rules on paper, that’s constitution. And they’re what’s referred to as political regime, which means how they actually function. Now, the world knows that the US Constitution is unique in what it says, but without recognizing it perhaps, they see better the difference it has made based on the provisions of the Constitution and how they were actually interpreted and executed.

That difference is what’s attracted millions to our shores in the past, but why is the system of governance here in the United States so different? What has made our system of government infinitely better and distinctive as a republic? The reason is because of one word that appears actually nowhere in the US Constitution, but that word is the church. The influence of Christianity and a predominant early biblical world view of the Christian church is the reason our quality of life has been the envy of the world, that people have traveled thousands of miles on foot and risk their lives for a chance to live here. So what has been the role of the church in our constitutional system of government? And is the contribution of the church necessary for our freedom to continue? And in what way does the church help government to function well? Well, today we’re going to address these questions and this issue.

And the title I’ve chosen to frame today’s conversation is simply this, the church and its role and its limits in our constitutional system. And with that, David knew. David, welcome back to the program. It’s always a great time to be together with you.

David New:

Well, it’s always wonderful to be with you, Sam, and with all the people that are listening to us this day. Blessings to everyone.

Sam Rohrer:

Indeed. And David, before we get into this discussion, what I’ve just laid out here today, and if we really to exhaust it would take more than this one program, of course, but we’ll get going in that in segment two. But that being said, you’ve asked me for a few minutes here at the beginning of the program to share some thoughts about the war ongoing with Iran. So what are your thoughts? What would you like to say?

David New:

Yes. I would like to discuss some of what life is like in Iran and it’s very fascinating. For example, concerning buses, public transportation and subways, they are discriminated on the basis of gender. The front part of the bus is men only, and the back part of the bus is women only. And the men’s part is always larger than the female part. And if the female part is completely full, a woman is not permitted to go and find an empty seat in the men’s section. That kind of reminds you of what we used to do in this country and parts of it

With the segregation. Also, for a woman to travel outside of Iran, she must get permission from her husband. If she wants to apply for a passport, she must get permission from her husband. For a woman, can she be denied employment by her husband for just about any reason? If he doesn’t like where she’s working, she can’t go and have that job. Some of the other things are, when you meet men and women coming together, you can shake hands, but the men only shake hands with other men and the women can shake hands with other women. You cannot have men and women shaking hands together. In public, men can kiss other men and women can kiss other women, but you cannot have women kissing men and vice versa.

Also, in public, women are permitted to smile, which is nice, but they are not permitted to laugh very loud. They must not laugh in a way that brings attention to themselves, otherwise they can be criminally prosecuted. The term of art that is used for this violation of this clan is called flamboyant behavior. Flamboyant behavior. Women cannot ride bikes less any of their skin be exposed. Women cannot wear clothes with any kind of writing on it unless it brings attention to the woman’s body. Women can’t have pets. Women cannot have a selfie. You can’t get a selfie. Go up to a sports person like a soccer player and have a selfie with him. Girls can be married at the age of 13, boys at 14. So there’s all kinds of rules that goes on in Iran, and you can see why the public is not happy with the moral police who enforce these rules.

It’s like 80 / 20 against the government and only 20% pro- Iranian.

Sam Rohrer:

All right, David. And well, that takes us right up to the break. Those are bits of information that I’m sure … I mean, I didn’t know some of those, and I’m sure most of our listeners did not as well. Thanks for sharing that. Ladies and gentlemen, nations are different. Cultures are different, and they do vary a lot. And that’s just one that David, thanks for sharing that. All right. Now, when we come back from the break, we’re going to continue. We’ll get into this matter of the church and its role and limits within our constitutional system. And we’ll begin in the next time we’re talking about the power of the church, then we’ll talk about the role of the church, and then we’ll talk about the limits of the church. Well, if you’re just joining us, we’re right at the beginning of the program here.

My title today, and the focus is the church and its role and the limits within our constitutional system and special guests here on this bimonthly emphasis on the constitution and American history is David New Constitutional Attorney. Now, a little bit more of background here. When it comes to the church, since the inception of humanity, life as we know it, the ranking and the empowerment of human authority or government, meaning the very same thing, authority and government is the very same word, just two different expressions of the same thing. But authority or government. Governments and empires have risen and fallen. The Bible makes it clear that nations that rise do so because God make it possible and it’s possible because it’s a part of his purposes. When their purpose is fulfilled, that nation will collapse. Scripture makes it also clear that rulers are raised up by the will of God and when their purpose is fulfilled, they are removed.

In Romans 13: one, the apostle Paul there identifies the cornerstone of all authority and governments where he says, “For there is no authority or government or power except of God. The powers or the authorities that be are ordained by God.” So literally, the Apostle Paul states that there is a pyramid structure of authority where God is at the top. He has delegated lesser authorities with all underneath all accountable to him. The ranked authorities, which are what the words mean there in the Greek and that passage, ranked authorities are the individual, the family, civil government, and then added into this by Christ at his first coming when he was here is the establishment of the church with Christ who said that he would build that church and that those who trust in him as Christians should live out their respective generations and they would be a part of that true church.

So according to the Apostle Paul, all the institutions of authority, the church is the newest, but certainly not the least important, actually to the contrary. All right. Now that being the case, David, you believe that the church as well is a very powerful institution, if not the most important or most influential on this planet at this point. Can you explain why?

David New:

The church is the most powerful spiritual government on earth. It’s the most powerful government on the earth. Just before we get into that though, I want to finish my comment about the introduction. Compared to the Muslim world, women in the Muslim world and in the Christian world. In the Christian world, wherever Christianity has gone, the status of women has been elevated, always, always elevated. And people say, “Well, what’s the proof of that? ” The proof is what happens in the gospels where Jesus first appears to women, specifically Mary Magdalene. Most Christians don’t not understand the significance of Jesus appearing to women first. They think it’s just something nice to do. No, sir. What Jesus was doing is bringing and enforcing woman equality because men could be witnesses, but not women. And by making a woman a witness of Jesus’ resurrection, he is making them equal to men.

Each have a different function. The man is the head and the woman follows the head, but it’s not because they’re not equal, they are equal. Now, for example, I just entered into the computer in Google. Jesus appeared to women first, and this is what the computer Google came back with. According to all four gospels, Jesus appeared first to women, specifically Mary Magdalenine. Then it goes on to say, “This was a revolutionary act as women’s testimony was not legally recognized in that era. By entrusting them with the message, Jesus empowered women as the primary witnesses to his resurrection.” That is something to think about. Now, the church. The church is absolutely the most powerful institution on this earth without question.

For example, the church is the oldest institution, the oldest continuous institution on this planet. It has been in existence for 2000 years. The church in its history has seen one government rise and other governments fall. Rise and fall, but the church of our Lord Jesus Christ remains. The Christian church can cross any border and trespass any land with the gospel and survive any attack by any government. Look at all the things the Nazis did against the Christian church during the Nazi Germany. Look at all the things the Soviet Union and the satellite communist states did against the church and yet the church survived both of them. People think the church is a weak anemic institution in the world that has little power or influence. You couldn’t be more wrong.

If you want to see the power of the church, think of this situation. If you could see what this world would be like without the church having ever existed, then you would see the power of the church and how extremely powerful it is. You may remember a movie called It’s a Wonderful Life with James Stewart and Donna Reed. And part of the whole movie is that James Stewart got to see what his community would be like without his following the good life and doing the right things by people. He could see the effect of how it had on that city as if he had never been there. If that could happen with our understanding of the church, we would be shocked how important the church is. Secularist, one of the reasons why they cannot see the importance of religion and Christianity in particular is because they live with it every day of their life.

They swim in a Christian pond and they don’t even know it. Now listen, there’s nothing in the whole world that has the most powerful weapon like the Christian church does. The Christian church has the single most powerful weapon and existence, far more powerful than a million nuclear weapons, and that’s the word of God. Because only the word of God can supersede the powers of death and take a soul from this life and translate them into the next life. The church of Jesus Christ is the first line of defense in any republic, in any free society. It’s the first line of defense to prevent an invasion by a foreign and corrupt influence. The church is the most powerful disinfectant that you could possibly have. The church can prevent more corruption and more evil by its power to prevent bad things from happening. Look at some key passages in the New Testament that describe the power of the church.

No government can claim this power. Look at verse Timothy. Three and verse 15. Look what Paul says. He calls the church the household of God, which is the church of the living God. The pillar and stay or the prop and support of the truth. Which government can claim that? None. Which government can claim to be the pillar and ground of the truth? None. It’s the church. For the government to do right, it must learn it from the church. Look at two Timothy. And this will be our last passage for this. Second Timothy three, verse 16. Look what the church is to administer. The word of God is to share the word of God. Look what it says. Paul said every scripture is God breathed, given by his inspiration and is profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience and for training in righteousness.

What government can do that? Does government have any of these kind of powers? No, it does not. Whatever government does to promote good and punish evil, it learns from the church of our Lord Jesus Christ. Then Paul goes on to say, “In conformity to God’s will and thought, purpose, and action. Only the church is acting out God’s will on this earth. And when the government does good and does right and does do good things, it’s doing it because of the church.” So our secular friends, they think because the word God does not appear in the Constitution, that gives no room for religion in our constitutional government. Is that true? No, it is not. How do we know that? How do we know that is a false interpretation? Because the first Congress hired chaplains in the Congress. They hired chaplains for the Congress, the Senate and the House.

They saw human beings as spiritual persons.

Sam Rohrer:

And with that, David, we have to break away. Ladies and gentlemen, stay with us as we move from that, the power of the church into now the role. What should be in fact the role of the church here in a constitutional republic here in America? What was it? All right. As we continue our discussion, David, let’s just go right back in right now to what we were discussing. Now, the role of the church, and we’re talking and we’re connecting here, the church’s role, how it was viewed by our founders. And you went right to scripture, which was exactly the right place to go. And we talked about that in the last segment. The church’s role as empowered by Christ himself, who in his first coming, came and he established the church. That church, and the point you made so very, very clearly, whereas other nations have come and gone, civilizations have come and disappeared.

The church has remained intact. And that’s because Christ is the one who is building it and no one is going to undo it. So it is a power, it is an authority of enormous consequence, both in its underpinnings, fueled by and empowered by the Holy Spirit himself. But now let’s go to the role of the church because as an authority, it is a ranked authority according to Romans 13 that we referred to earlier, so it falls within that category. So there is a role and that would talk about what that is. So let’s go here. Now, that being the case, you believe the framers expected the church, and that’s an easy one because we’ve talked about a lot, but they did. They expected the church to have an important role in our system of government. Is there any, let’s put it this way, evidence perhaps that you can present to prove that?

David New:

Yes, there is. There’s plenty of evidence. As I indicated before, the fact that the Congress, the very first Congress, which had 79 members in it, now there are 39 signers of the US Constitution and 16 of those 39 people were in the first Congress of the United States on the first half of the first Congress, and there were 79 members. So that means that signers of the Constitution made up about 20% of the first Congress. Now, what did they do? What did they do? They hired chaplains for the House and the Senate, and they gave them a salary of $500 per year. Why would they do something like that? Because they believed that members of Congress had spiritual needs, and they needed spiritual guidance to passing legislation, making laws for the United States of America. There is no question that is why a Congress, a chaplaincy, existed from the very beginning of the United States.

Now, one of the members of the US Supreme Court, his name was Tom Clark. And in 1947, while he was the Attorney General of the United States, he gave a speech about the church and the United States government, and he gave this speech before President Truman. Now, Justice Tom Clark would be appointed to the Supreme Court eventually by President Truman, and when Tom Clark was no longer on the Supreme Court, the person who replaced him was the great third good Marshall. So that gives you some context of how Tom Clark fits in this. Now listen to what Tom Clark says about Christianity and the church in our system of government. He said, “Christianity and our democracy are synonymous. Without applying Christian ideals to democracy, there would be no democracy.” Now today, you talk to most Americans a vast majority. They see absolutely no connection between Christianity and free government.

None what so ever. And that is one of the reasons why we’re in trouble. Then Justice Clark goes on, our US attorney, he says, “The teachings of Christianity and democracy should become part of her everyday life. By Christianity, I mean no one particular creed, I mean all creeds.” Then he says, “We have not and we cannot separate the teachings of Christianity from the fundamentals of our form of government.” When was the last time you heard anybody say something like that on the TV? He goes on to say, “The words and the spirit of the Holy Scriptures breathe through every document that has made our nation great.” And listen to this. Here’s what he says the church. The church has the responsibility to do. “Upon the church rests the responsibility to furnish leaders. “What he is saying is that the church in our system of government has the responsibility to teach and train our future leaders about how to run a republic.

So this is solid evidence that the church has a very powerful role. It is the most powerful institution on this planet.

Sam Rohrer:

And David, that is excellent information. And I’m going to bring up another thought here because what you are saying, David, is for some people say,” Well, I never heard that before, or maybe I believe it, or maybe I don’t believe it. “In some research that I have done today in preparation, I access some publicly available information and I ask the question about the role of the church in republics and our nation here, particularly the United States. I know from being in office, David, in my knowledge of scripture, that the acknowledgement of our founders, William Penn in particular, I mean, in the book that I written that actually talks about it, I have the quotes in there, but they understood that man was inherently evil, had a sinful heart. They believed in the fall, biblical worldview. There was a fall. Sin came into the world. They believed in God as creator.

That’s obviously our organic documents and because of that, certain things would happen. And so I asked the question to say,” From history, what do we know about the role of the church in America and the sense of accountability? “Because if there is a God, and there is, we are accountable to him. That’s what the Bible says. And Penn said that. The other framers believed that, and therefore they said,” We better conduct ourselves differently. “When I asked question here, theological infrastructure was one thing the answer came back with. So the US system of checks and balances is rooted in the Christian doctrine of original sin. I mean, this is coming off of secular information here I’m reading. The belief that human nature is fallen and therefore no individual can be trusted with absolute power. And again, secular information composite of what is there says Christianity brings the idea of a moral auditor.

Throughout history, the church has held the state to be accountable to a higher law driving movements from the abolition of slavery to civil rights. We’ve talked about that on this program, David, and then it just talks about how things are changing and where we are right now. So today there’s a core tension in 2026, and that is a shift from moral accountability based on the concept of original sin to God above, to whom are accountable. Is this right, that question, to technocratic accountability. That’s a lot of talk about that. That’s what the Gaza Peace Board, it is a technocratic authority where the question is no longer asked, is it right, but is it efficient? David, respond to that a little bit and just give some other concepts of fundamental principles that were built into our constitution that came only from the pages of scripture and from the Christian church.

David New:

The teachings of the Christian church in the United States and in all free societies form the language of government. How does the government know what to say, what to do, what not to do? How does the government get its ideas and its principles? Things like the First Amendment, things like the Declaration of Independence. What forms the language of government? It ultimately is the teachings of the Christian church.

Sam Rohrer:

All right. Well, you just took it right there. I didn’t know if you were going to say anything more, but you could, but all of these things that we just think just came out of nowhere, checks and balances, separation of powers, the 10 commandments as a fixed moral law that underpinned our entire system of justice so that people would know what is right and wrong, that murder is punishable by death, that Stealing, that coveting, that corruption and bribery, that stealing, lying are wrong. David, when we take and we throw out the moral authority of God’s word from the church as Christ has put it together, government does what it wants to. And all of a sudden you’re back to original sin, ladies and gentlemen, and people do what they want to do whenever they want to. You wonder why things come out of Washington the way they do?

Pragmatic thinking that doesn’t ever ask the question what is right? Think about it. They don’t ask the question of what is right anymore. The question is, does it work? Is it efficient? That’s pragmatism. That is anti-scripture. So very, very practical. When we come back, we’re going to talk about the limits of the church. David, before we get into talking about the limits of government here, ladies and gentlemen, I want to share one other thought on the concept of how firmly embedded into the thinking of our founders was the concept of what I shared earlier from secular history as I accumulated this research this morning. And that is the idea of original sin, the depravity of the human heart. Our founders talked much about this because they said if a person is left unrestrained, it was Penn who said this and others, but that if the citizens of this republic and those in office would not voluntarily submit themselves to the authority of the 10 commandments, God’s universal moral law, you could never have a republic.

It would never come into being. And there would be nothing that would even remotely look like freedom. And from that concept then came all of the separation of powers and all of that we just talked about in the last segment. But that idea of accountability was so deeply understood that all of those things formed the part of why would we voluntarily restrain ourself according to God’s moral law? Well, because we’re going to give an account to him. And if you have civil government that’s functioning representative of those, then you have a free society in conformity with God’s law. But here’s where it came from. King Solomon, the Old Testament, wisest man ever to live. We know that. He said at the end of a whole thing, Ecclesiastes 12, 13 and 14, he said, “Now, at the end of the day, let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter.

Fear God and keep his commandments. For this is the complete duty or the whole duty of man. And here’s the reason. For God shall bring every work into judgment with every secret thing, whether it be good or whether it be evil.” That is the essence of accountability. And where does that sense of accountability come from? God’s word. That is part of the message of the church, of the Christian church. And where that prevails and where that is in place, then the people are different. And then those they put in government are different. So with the New Testament revelation of the concept of the church and human society, neither the New Testament nor Christ established the church to be in a competitive basis or to be in a companion role with the jurisdiction of civil government. The efforts of human government of the past, like for instance, where the Catholic church sought to combine the organized church with civil authority, that was not biblical.

Yet the role of the church in preaching the gospel and teaching people how to model Christ and be his disciples as ambassadors of a heavenly kingdom was in fact to influence the type and quality of people who would become leaders within civil government, regardless of the type of government. That’s 100% biblical. Well, the US Constitution and the influence of God’s word accompanied by biblical worldview, what we’re talking about today, understanding of the accountability to God, made this nation a shining city on a hill. But there’s a distinctive difference between some organized church as some religious hierarchy directing government and the shared common biblical and Christian worldview that controls the inhibitions and the desires individually, whether a citizen or those who are or would be in positions of authority. Now, David, you believe the church has an important role? Obviously we’ve been talking about that, but has some limitations as well.

Would you describe those?

David New:

Can you hear me good?

Sam Rohrer:

Yes, I can. Go ahead. Can you hear me

David New:

All right?

Sam Rohrer:

Yep, go ahead.

David New:

Okay. In my book, I point out not only does the Constitution recognize the sinfulness of man in Articles one, two, and three by dividing power between Congress, the president, and the courts, but the Constitution also recognizes that redemption from sin is possible. Now, where does the Constitution do that? In Article five. Article five is about amending the Constitution. When we do something wrong, we can redeem ourselves from our mistake by passing amendments and bringing about a more just society. The 13th Amendment that ended slavery proves that redemption from sin is possible under our system of the Constitution. The right of women to vote and the 19th Amendment passed in 1920. That proves that we can redeem ourselves from unjust discrimination and having a more just society. The Constitution makes redemption possible. So Article five is a key feature of bringing us closer to God’s will by making a more perfect union.

Now, believe it or not, ladies and gentlemen, the New Testament has its own form of the separation of church and state. George Whitfield taught this. I want you to read this passage in a new way today, Ephesians two: eight, and look and see if you can find any role for the government and the salvation of a human soul.

And listen for that. Look what Paul said in Ephesians two: eight. “For it is by grace, God’s unmerited favor that you are saved, delivered from judgment and may partakers of Christ’s salvation through your faith. And this salvation is not of yourselves, not of the government or of your own doing, not of the government. It came not through your own striving, not of the government, but it is the gift of God. The New Testament, God’s word teaches government has no role in the salvation of our

Sam Rohrer:

Souls.” All right, David, but the teachings of scripture, the principles contained in God’s word, understanding that God is singular at the top of authority and has ranked all authority and placed the individual and the family and civil authority and the government and the church into their jurisdictions, all ranked, not overlapping, all to work with each other. That entire concept and everything we’ve talked about, it only comes off the pages of scripture. That’s the power of the church, isn’t it?

David New:

They’re both true, but the government can’t save us.

Sam Rohrer:

Absolutely. But yet today, don’t we see when you have people in government or government itself that wants to believe that they perhaps are God, which is exactly what the atheists of the world are, the others who do not believe that they’re submissive to God and operate in their own pride and their arrogance, they actually would like to have people bow down to them as if they were God, but that obviously can’t be, and that’s not the teaching of the church or the Bible, is it?

David New:

Yeah, that’s absolutely right. The book of Daniel has it right on. We will not bow down whether we’re saved or not through this fire. We’re not going to worship you.

Sam Rohrer:

And with that, David, we are at the end of … I guess I think we’re at the end of the program here pretty much. I was going to ask you to pray. Pray in 30 seconds. Would you please?

David New:

Dear Father, in the name of Jesus, we pray for the forgiveness of our sins. We pray for the forgiveness of abortion. We pray for the forgiveness of sodomy. We pray for the forgiveness of worldliness. We pray for sanctification in our hearts so that we can be a light to the world. Forgive us of our sins. In Christ’s name we pray.

Sam Rohrer:

Amen and amen. David, you thank you so much for being here today. This is a powerful program. Didn’t know how it was going to go every week, but the Lord helped us to get a lot in there. Ladies and gentlemen, I trust that you heard information today that it’s both encouraging, perhaps connected dots between bits of history or thought maybe that you’ve had and put it in a way that helps us to … That actually drives us more to be grounded in God’s word, standing firmly. It does not change. And when we do it, God bless us.