Surviving Church Conflict

Surviving Church Conflict

October 7, 2025

Host: Dr. Jamie Mitchell

Guest: Doug Hornock

Note: This transcript is taken from a Stand in the Gap Today program aired on 10/07/25. To listen to the podcast, click HERE.

Disclaimer: While reasonable efforts have been made to provide an accurate transcription, the following is a representation of a mechanical transcription and as such, may not be a word for word transcript. Please listen to the audio version for any questions concerning the following dialogue.

Jamie Mitchell:

Hello friends and welcome to Stand In the Gap Today. I’m your host, Jamie Mitchell. Each fall as a part of my duties as director of church culture, I begin researching and then writing what we call the state of the church report. APN will produce this report by December and it’ll be available for pastors and church leaders each year. A theme emerges as we look at the church landscape, but this year we’ve purposely decided to focus on the topic of unity and division. Unity is the fuel that drives the body of Christ, and division is that ugly virus that infects it and disables her ability to impact the world with the gospel. Sadly, as we have talked with church leaders, we are finding that every church has experience at one level or another, conflict, the simplest diagnosis that we’re all sinners when we’re not walking in the spirit, conflict and upheaval manifests itself.

So if we are going to minimize the damage of potential church conflicts, we need to do a deep analysis and get honest on how bad things could get. My guest today has lived through a hard season of conflict in his past ministry. Doug Hornock was a pastor for decades, enjoyed years of fruitful, joyous ministry, yet he was faced with a dark season of church conflict. I’ve invited Doug to give insights today from this painful experience, but hopefully to equip God’s people to do better if conflict knocks at their church’s door. Doug, welcome to Stand In the Gap Today.

Doug Hornock:

Jamie, thank you so much for having me. We had a chance to meet last summer and we seem to connect right away both our wives as well, and so it’s great to be on your program and I thank you for this opportunity.

Jamie Mitchell:

Doug. I was privileged to sit through your workshop that you gave pastors on church conflict, and you had so many great insights, mostly from a particular church conflict that you went through. As we discussed, there was no reason to mention the church or where it happened or when it happened, but our attention is not to speak negatively about that fellowship, but it does provide an actual illustration of what we’re discussing today. Now, before we get to your story, which we will, I think it’s important just to speak in generalities about conflict. Doug, as you’ve looked at this now for all these years, why does conflict occur in churches and among brothers and sisters in Christ?

Doug Hornock:

Well, Jamie, I think we have a real definitive answer to that question, and it’s found in the book of James and James chapter four, where James writes What causes quarrels and what causes fights among you? Is it not this, that your passions are at war within you, you desire and do not have, so you murder, you covet and cannot obtain, so you fight and quarrel. And I think it’s simply that believers, even though they come to Christ and positionally, they are righteous in Christ, living out that righteousness is a constant battle. And it is in part because of immaturity. It is because of carnality. And I think also, and this is something that we don’t always like to hear, I think it’s because there are people in the church who are not believers who are deceiving themselves. And as a result, sometimes they get into a position of leadership, they get into a position of prominence in the church and they just cause not only the pastor or heartache, but also all the leadership.

And the worst thing that can happen is when they get into a position of leadership, when they get on the board and perhaps maybe even become the chairman of the board. I think people are by nature, selfish. We’re sinful. Oftentimes we forget that it’s not our church, but it’s the Lord’s church. And sometimes when a pastor comes into a church, he’s the newbie, he’s brand new, and there may be people that are in that church for 10, 20, 30, 40 years and all you have to do is look back on their lives and I’m sure that they look and say, you know what? I paid for this church. This building is mine. Were it not for me? This church wouldn’t exist. And then you have a pastor coming in and he maybe says some things that they don’t like and so they just create problem. And so that’s a real problem.

And these conflicts shouldn’t surprise us. Paul warned the Ephesian elders in Acts chapter 20 that there would be problem. He says, I proclaimed the gospel to you. And he says, keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of God. He says, I know that after I leave, savage, wolves will come in among you and not spare the flock even from your own number. Men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. And so it shouldn’t surprise us that the churches filled with conflict today because of carnal Christians, immature Christians, and in some cases people who aren’t even believers.

Jamie Mitchell:

Wow. Doug, as I’m listening to you, my mind, I’m reminded of what Paul wrote to Titus. He says, there are those who have come into the church and they’re not just disrupting the entire church, they’re disrupting all households within the church. Doug, we got about a minute or so left for this segment because of you speaking on this issue, pastors have confided in you. Is there one common thing that you’ve heard from pastors when they have shared with you their conflict story?

Doug Hornock:

I think there’s two things that often happen. The first is they never it coming. They’re absolutely blindsided and that’s what can make it very, very heartbreaking. And secondly, I think that sometimes we overestimate our own abilities to deal with issues. I don’t know if it came through when we met this past summer for the very first time, but I have somewhat of an overwhelming personality. And when I went to this church, I knew that there were issues that were there, but I thought my overwhelming personality, I thought that my own strengths, my own abilities would be able to deal with issues. There were red flags that I saw both going in and even in some of the decisions that I made. But I overestimated my own strengths, my own abilities. Not that I didn’t feel called to the ministry, not that I didn’t feel gifted, but there are some things that despite a giftedness, despite your own abilities, if you allow certain things to happen, you are going to have conflict in that church. And I also learned just a sad reality is that oftentimes blood and friendship trump’s truth In a church, you have people that have been in a church for years and years and years together with their friends, with their family members. And even though they may be carnal, even though they may be incredibly immature, they’re that relationship is going to trump the truth and the loyalty to the pastor and the truth of the word of God.

Jamie Mitchell:

Well, here’s the bottom line too, friends is that as pastors, as leaders, we admit also our own failures, our own weaknesses, our own depravity, our own sin. And we know that’s a mixture. We’re not taking one side or the other. We’re not just saying it’s the pastor’s fault or it’s the parishioner’s fault, but it’s conflict and we have to be aware of it. Now when we return, I want Doug to get into his story. It’s just a tremendous illustration and talk about the causes for conflict and gain understanding. We’re trying to equip you today so that when you see conflict coming in your congregation, in your church family, you’ll be a source to try to help and stop it. Don’t go anywhere. Welcome back. This is Jamie Mitchell, the Stand of the Gap Today, and we’re discussing church conflicts and how to survive them. Pastor Doug Ock is my guest. Doug, can you take a few minutes and provide a context for the church conflict that you experienced nearly, I guess 30 years ago? What kind of happened and give a little bit of a context of that church conflict.

Doug Hornock:

Well, the church was in the suburb of a very large metropolitan city in the Midwest at the time when the church began, it began under the leadership of a very strong and powerful man, and it was also in a community that was absolutely ripe for growth. And as a result, the church grew rapidly. They built an auditorium that would seat over a thousand people. He later would go to California. And the two pastors that followed him, I was the third pastor to follow him. Both of them had very serious issues in the church. The first one, just because he wasn’t the original pastor, people were comparing him with the previous pastor. And as a result, he literally got run out of town. The second pastor was weaker and he also experienced some very serious criticism. But the thing that made his ending so tragic is he chose to take his own life.

He hung himself in the bathroom, which was off his office. And the tragedy of it was that their youth pastor at the time had been my youth pastor and he had asked if I would come back and speak at his ordination, which I did after the death of this previous pastor. Well, when I got there and spoke that Sunday morning doing pulpit supply because they were without a pastor and spoke that evening that his ordination, a number of the leadership came up to me and they said, we’ve had some very positive response to your ministry with us this Sunday. Would you be interested in being considered for the position here? And I was somewhat enamored by the size of the church and the opportunity for it. And I told ’em that there were some things going on at my church and it would take six months before I completed those things, but I said I would be interested.

And I went there and I just failed to see some of the issues that were underlying that caused the two previous pastors to have issues and one of them leave in the bad way and the other one leave by taking his own life. Those issues had just been swept under the rug they were never dealt with. And as a result, there were issues that came to the surface. Again, the church had never dealt with sin. I don’t want to get into some of the details. I talked to you about it privately, but there were some issues I believe with immorality on the staff, but they were never dealt with. People just swept it totally under the rug and that was part of the problem. And additionally, I allowed, I made two other mistakes and some of these were my own making. Number one, there were men who got on the elder board who were unqualified and we were desperate For men, sometimes you have to plead and beg to get people to serve.

I heard Chuck Swindoll at the seminar say this, and it’s really true. He said, never talk someone into or out of a major decision. If someone doesn’t want to serve as an elder, don’t beg him to serve. If somebody wants to leave the elder board, don’t beg them to stay. Don’t talk anybody into or out of a major decision. And so we allowed people to get on the board who created serious problems. And the second mistake that I made, which caused some of the conflict is I hired a minister of music who created a lot of division in the church and I was totally clueless as to how much he had gotten his own following. When I finally confronted him with it literally in my office, I said to him, I realize that you’ve been causing some issues in this church. And I said, I want us to resolve it.

And he said, I’m not going to talk to you unless we talk in front of the elders. And he got up from his chair and he went to the door and he put his hand on the door and I said to him, if you go out that door, there’s only going to be one loser in this and it’s going to be you. And he looked at me and he said, no, it’s going to be you. Well, I survived that. We did eventually dismiss him, but the church just went through all kinds of problems and I was accused of all kinds of things that were just terribly, terribly unfair. They were not true at all. It is almost laughable to look back at some of the things that I was accused of and that just created so much heartache. And one of the things I’ve learned is the truth and time march hand in hand, and after 30 years, I have been totally vindicated. But those were just some of the issues that caused the conflict context for the conflict that we went through.

Jamie Mitchell:

Doug, as you look back and you analyze what happened, and just let me say this, I so appreciate that you first and foremost said, here were the mistakes I made. And boy, anybody in ministry, we know that when something happens, it’s not in a vacuum. Maybe we responded wrong or spoke a word or we didn’t see something that we should have seen. However, just as you analyze this situation, can you identify maybe some of the causes, maybe even behind before you even got there that were already brewing in the church?

Doug Hornock:

I think that was after the very strong leadership of the founding pastor. There was a desire on the part of some men to seize control, to seize a leadership role in the church. Nobody challenged the founding pastor, nobody. He was a very, very strong leader. In fact, his first name was Adolf, which was kind of interesting. And he was a strong leader. I’m not suggesting that he was a dictator or a death body. He was anything but he was a very strong and powerful leader. And what he said went. And so I think that there were some men who wanted to seize a degree of control of the church and they were tired of maybe just rubber stamping some of the things that he did. The other mistake that I made that was a problem is I gave some people a pass on their Christianity.

And by that I mean some of the people that got into positions of leadership were second generation Christians and they had grown up in the church. And having grown up in the church, I’ve often said that the church is the greatest social safety net there is. People can go to church and they’re there, they meet their friends, they can enjoy the music, they tolerate a sermon. But then afterwards, what do people do? They congregate in the lobby. They start talking with their friends. They talk about the weekend football games or whatever, what they’re going to do for a vacation. They talk anything but spiritual things, and it’s really a wonderful social safety net. If something happens where they lose their job, there’s a surgery, there’s a death. There are people that just swoop in and minister and encourage them, but they’ve never experienced the reality of having been born again.

I remember a professor at Dallas Seminary, he used to say that some people come to church and they fill their thimble full of truth, and then they spill it on the steps as they leave. And that’s the way some people are, and they’ve never experienced a life changing reality of Christ in their life. And the other thing is I think sometimes they’ve been taken captive by Satan. I was hit right between the eyes squarely a few months ago when I was reading in two Timothy two. It says, the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to everyone able to teach patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil after being captured by to do his will. And that was an eyeopener for me 30 years after this conflict that there were some people in the church who had been captured by Satan to do his will. And the thing that Satan wants more than anything is to divide the church for there to be disunity in the church for us to quibble and fight over some of the most silly things imaginable.

Jamie Mitchell:

Doug, as I’m listening to you, those two things, I would say amen and amen. I’ve labeled it what I call the boomerang effect, meaning when you have somebody who is a strong leader and he is recognized in that way, there are other leaders around him that they don’t necessarily appreciate it, they do appreciate. However, bitter jealousy and selfish ambition grips their heart. They wish they had that leadership ability and they want that leadership influence. And when that person either makes a mistake or leaves, they seize that opportunity. The problem is, is the second part that you brought up. And that is they lack spiritual establishing. They lack the spiritual goods to be that kind of leader. And so when you have selfish ambition and bitter jealousy and you have an empty spiritual tank, all kinds of problems will arise. As you are listening today, you might be living through a conflict or coming out of one, or if there’s no conflict right now, trust me, there’s one in your future.

You might not be able to avoid it, but at least prepare for it. Now when we come back, I want to talk to Doug about the hardest aspect of a church conflict, and that is the effect it has on relationships. Don’t go anywhere. Well, thank you for staying with us. We’re examining the reality of church conflicts and how to survive them. Doug Hornock has navigated us through his very difficult church rupture. And Doug, as I’ve been preparing for this state of the church report that I’m writing and talking with pastors about conflict to a man, they’ve told me that broken relationships and the disappointment of betrayal by people who they thought were their friends was the hardest reality to deal with and really the hardest consequence or outcome to deal with. Can you reflect on your situation and the reality of that hurt and that loss of relationships and the sense of betrayal?

Doug Hornock:

I really appreciate this question because I think one of the biggest tragedies, all of this is the fact that often our children, when they see their father as well as their mother being mistreated by people, it can so turn them off that they literally walk away from Christianity. And I want to say that it wasn’t because I was a pillar of strength, because behind closed doors I would often weep and I mean weep bitterly. My wife and I shed many, many a tear. In fact, I’m getting emotional as I think about it, but the reality is never in the presence of our children did we bad mouth what was going on. We tried to keep them informed as to what was going on. They were at the time, all four of them at very impressionable ages. They were in high school and junior high at the time.

But by the grace of God, all four of my children are walking with the Lord. All 15 of our grandchildren are walking with the Lord. But it still had an impact on them. In fact, my oldest son, I remember asking him a number of years ago, I said, why don’t you become a leader in your church? I said, I think you’d make a good deacon. He’s since become a deacon at that church, by the way. But at the time he said, dad, after seeing what Christians did to you, I just don’t trust people in the church. And now again, he’s since matured. He’s almost 50 years old now. And so, but at the time, that really made me feel bad. And it’s heartbreaking. It is beyond heartbreaking to see the fractures that take place in people’s lives, friendships that have gone on, and not always, but the vast majority of times, blood and friendship trumps the truth.

But there are those people that will stand up for the truth. They will stand behind the pastor, they will stand by the board and the decisions that need to be made. And in some cases they end up walking away from friendships that they have had for 20, 25, 30 years. And that is a very, very sad thing. And it takes a terrible, terrible toll on one’s family. I was reading a book just last week where it mentioned that some children of a pastor had walked away from Christianity because their father had gone through a conflict in the church. And again, it took a toll. But one of the things that I’ve told my children is that we have seen the faithfulness of God in all of this. And I am convinced that the best memories of our lives, the greatest lessons learned, the finest strengths developed in you, and the best stories we will ever tell will involve the problems that we face, the conflicts that we endure, the battles that we fought, the negative people we had to deal with and the troubles that we endured because God brought us through those difficult times.

One of the things that was such an encouragement to me when I was in the midst of my battles, my twin brother called me up and he said, Doug, I’ve got a verse for you. And it was Isaiah 54 17 and it says this, no weapon that is formed against you shall prosper. And every tongue that accuses you in judgment, you shall condemn. This is the heritage of the servant of the Lord, and their vindication is from me. And I took that verse, and we can argue whether that is applicable to me today, but I claimed that verse and God honored that. And that was such an incredible blessing to me. And I would say in the midst of S, find a verse, whether it’s Isaiah 54 17, whether it’s maybe the words that God spoke to Jeremiah and Jeremiah one, whatever it is, and just say, that’s going to be where I stake my flag and I’m going to hold to that truth, and God will honor that.

Jamie Mitchell:

As pastors, we experience conflict, we know that. But equally so this does affect lay people. I mean we have the pastoral perspective because this is not just a role in the church, it’s our job. Our family is affected, but when conflict happens, it affects the relationships with one another. In the church members pick sides, members enter into conflict with each other. Some leave the church and walk away from friendships that they’ve had for decades in some cases. Can you speak to that issue about how the church conflict will affect the friendships and the relationships within a church?

Doug Hornock:

We saw that happen so incredibly clearly in this church conflict, and it was heartbreaking. People who had known others for, as I said, 20, 30 years for them to lose those friendships, but they made a determination that truth was going to trump friendships. And there are about a handful of people. One of the things that I’ve observed is that it seems to me, and I don’t have anything to back this up other than my own thinking, it seems to me that in a church you’ve got 10% of the people that could be unhappy and are causing all the problem. 10% of the people that will staunchly be defending the pastor or the board and the decisions that they’re make. And then there’s 80% of the people in the middle who are absolutely clueless as to what’s going on. And those, that 20%, 10% on each side of the issue, they will be stalwarts and they will fight to the death on that issue. But what happens is the church just begins to bleed profusely that 80% in the middle because they don’t want to go to church where you can walk in the door and you immediately sense the tension that exists. And if it’s not dealt with quickly, the church will literally die over time. And I learned that you’ve just got to deal with issues as quickly as they come up.

Jamie Mitchell:

You are exactly right. I have seen that 10 80 10 principal lived out when there was a conflict, that middle section who had no dog in the fight either way, they basically walked away because they didn’t want to live through the conflict. Doug, as I have looked at this situation, I think the most heart wrenching aspect of relational pain is one of betrayal, and I always use King David as an example. David experienced something that in ministry and in church conflicts, we see all the time betrayal from someone above you and betrayal by someone underneath you, meaning David was betrayed by King Saul and he was called to submit to King Saul, and David was also betrayed by his son, and he walked away and he chose not to hurt his own son. That idea of betrayal and injustice, it’s a painful, painful reality. Can you speak on that and just maybe help us understand how painful betrayal of those above you below you walking with you, what does that feel like?

Doug Hornock:

Oh, it is heartbreaking. I had a man, and this is why I have always told people who are going through a conflict, the pastor, I said, choose very carefully who you are going to confide in, because I confided in a friend who I thought was my friend, and I shared with him very bluntly how I felt that the problem could have been solved as far as the division in the church. And he went and spread that around. And at a meeting, I was confronted by somebody who said, did you make that statement? And rather than denying it, I had to confess up. I wasn’t going to in any way be deceitful or lie, but I said yes. I said that and I meant it. And then I looked directly at this man who had betrayed my confidence and I said, but I said that to someone who I thought was my friend who could keep what I said in confidence, but it was obvious that I couldn’t.

And that was just, I learned that you’ve got to be very careful. And I remember in seminary, Howard Hendricks would say that one of the big lies that we’ve been taught is that the pastor can’t have friends, and you got to have a friend. You got to have a friend. I can remember him always harping on that, and I somewhat take a little bit of issue with that. You got to have friends, but you better be very, very careful who you choose as your friends who you’re going to confide in. And I’ve been richly blessed because I am a second generation pastor and my dad has distinction of having five sons who all went into the pastorate. We all graduated from Dallas Seminary and my sister didn’t have any sense, and she married a preacher who graduated from Dallas Seminary. And so my support group was my family and a couple of very, very close personal friends.

Jamie Mitchell:

Well, friends, these are sobering and heartfelt thoughts When we come back is reconciliation and resolve impossible. We’re going to finish up with Doug Hornock and gain some understanding about conflict in the church. Well, today our focus has been surviving church conflicts. They happen more than we want to admit. Every church experienced some kind of upheaval. Listen, the early church, as we can see in Acts chapter six, had a dispute rise up with a certain group of Hellenistic Jewish widows who were being overlooked. Fortunately, the apostles stepped in, they resolved it quickly. Yet the fact of the matter is it did happen even in the early church, Doug Hornock has been providing us insights and personal reflections from his own church conflict experience. Doug, can you get to the end of your story? What ultimately happened and was there any signs of restoration, reconciliation resolution? What happened by the end of it?

Doug Hornock:

Well, the sad reality is that the church, even though it was a very large church at the time, no longer is in existence, what happened is that the congregation was absorbed by another church who used it as a satellite church for there, and they took them under the wing, but they left the denomination that they were in. And so the church is no longer functioning today as it was back then. Again, the building is still there. There’s a congregation that meets there, but the people that were part of that original church are no more. And I think there comes a time when God does write over at Church Ichabod because of just how bad things have gotten. And that’s a sad thing for us personally. I’ve learned a valuable lesson, and that is the truth and time march hand in hand, and that being the case, I can go back to that area and I do because I have a son who lives there in that community.

And I can hold my head high because of the way I left, because of the way I interacted with people both during the conflict and after the conflict and even to this day. And what’s interesting is, and it would take too long to explain it, but some of the people who caused me the greatest grief were people who have since asked for and have received my forgiveness. I mentioned that the Minister of Music caused me a lot of problems, and just a few years ago, we actually ran into him and his wife and some of his children and he asked if I would call him and I did, and he apologized and then he later sent me this email. He said, thanks so much for the call. It was really great to talk with you. I look forward to seeing you in person sometime. I’d love to keep corresponding by email.

Also, I hope you share all my regrets with Connie. One thing I forgot to say, please forgive me and Jamie, that meant more to me than anything because I gave this guy opportunity after opportunity after opportunity to do what was right, and he was just determined. And what happened is his own daughter confronted him with his hypocrisy. And it was, again, it’s an amazing, amazing story. Tragically, he has since passed away from cancer. But for me personally, God has totally and completely vindicated me. Now, that doesn’t always happen with everybody who goes through conflict, and I always hesitate to share my story because I come out the hero of it. And I don’t want it to ever be perceived that I was this giant who survived this. I survived it, but the scars are still there. And even now when I talk about it, I could let my emotions get away from me and we wouldn’t be able to continue this conversation.

But there were a number of things that were very helpful for me. I think if you really guard what you say, be careful what you write. In fact, don’t write things because it’s so easy for people to read into those something between the line. Surround yourself with a support group that you can truly trust your family, some of your dearest friends. Another thing, if I can just mention this, is there is a resource, a book that was ever so helpful for me, and it’s a book put out by Stevens Ministries, and it’s called Antagonist in the Church. It’s written by Kenneth Hout, and it was the best resource I have found. It needs to be required reading for everybody in seminary, and it needs to be required reading for everybody in the pastorate. And you need to read it about every two years because it is such an excellent, excellent resource.

I was looking and scrambling during this conflict for resources to help me deal with it. And this was the best one I found. I had a brother who was pastoring a church in Chicago, and he had gone through some conflicts and he and I talked on the phone quite often, and I remember calling him once and I said, I think I’m going to get fired at the Deacons meeting, our elders meeting tonight. And he said, did you get your leadership magazine? And he said, open it up to page 78. And he said, here’s what you need to do. And it was right there guy by the name of speed Lee, LEAS. How’s that for a name? Speed Lee? And he had written an article about dealing with conflict. And I would say just read everything you can get your hands on. Be forgiving as a person. Be careful who you have put in leadership. Be careful who you choose as your friends. Be careful who you confide in and make sure above everything you have qualified leaders and elders in the church.

Jamie Mitchell:

Well, Doug, the interesting thing as I was listening to you is that you still are touch help people understand the deep hurt that is underneath these church conflicts and how important it is to resolve them. We have about a minute left. Is there one or two things that you could say that is a positive influence towards resolution?

Doug Hornock:

My father was a World War II veteran. He was at Pearl Harbor when the war broke out, and he was not a believer at the time. And my dad used to say over and over again, and there were many valuable lessons. He was probably the most influential person in my life, but my dad used to say over and over again, kill ’em with kindness, kill ’em with kindness. And my dad was a very, very forgiving person. And those were the things that I learned that you’ve got to be forgiving all these people who wronged me. I can honestly say before God that I have forgiven them. I truly have. But forgiveness does not mean that there’s not the scars that are still there or the hurt that is there, nor will you give them the opportunity to hurt you again. But you’ve got to be a forgiver.

You’ve got to treat people with kindness, treat them with love, be Christ-like towards people. And I think that one of the things that conflict did for me is it really reaffirmed my calling. I never became disillusioned with the ministry to the point that I never wanted to be back in the pastorate. I loved being a pastor, and I am so thankful for the fact that the last 10 years of my pastoral ministries was at the church that my dad started in 1953, was later pastored by my older brother for 39 years. And then I pastored it for 10, and it’s now pastored finally by another Hornock, and the church is doing great, but it was the best 10 years of my pastoral ministry, and part of it was

Jamie Mitchell:

Doug. Doug, thank you so much for being with us today. We go on for hours. Hey, this is October. It means Pastor appreciation month. We want you to find ways to encourage your pastor. We hope today has blessed you as we looked about how to survive church conflict. We know this. If you’re going to handle church conflict, you have to live and lead with courage. See you tomorrow.