Can the Church Be Saved?

Host: Dr. Jamie Mitchell

Guest: Gene Getz

Note: This transcript is taken from a Stand in the Gap Today program aired on 1/13/26. To listen to the podcast, click HERE.

Disclaimer: While reasonable efforts have been made to provide an accurate transcription, the following is a representation of a mechanical transcription and as such, may not be a word for word transcript. Please listen to the audio version for any questions concerning the following dialogue.

Jamie Mitchell:

Well, welcome to another edition of Stand in the Gap Today. I’m your host, Jamie Mitchell, director of church culture at the American Pastors Network. Hey, did you know that the greatest period of church growth and world history was really the first 300 years of Christianity, mostly influenced by the Apostle Paul? And then between 300 and 1100 AD, things began to level off. And since then, there has actually been a decline when you consider all of the world’s population. The mandate of Christ was to go into all the world and make disciples. And the fact is, we have not been doing such a great job. Now, if you talk to many church experts and consultants, they might have a different idea of the condition of the church. It seemed we have a lot bigger churches and maybe even churches on every corner of every town. But do we have healthy, functioning, and fruitful churches?

Today, we want to consider the church. And if there is a decline, can it be saved or better? Can we bring renewal to churches today? And our guest is probably one of the most influential church leaders that I personally have ever known. And I am so thrilled to have my good friend, Dr. Gene Getz, with us. There’s no exaggeration to say that Gene has literally been a witness to modern church history. He has seen it all. He’s been in the middle of its ups and downs, innovations, and disappointments. He’s authored over 70 books. Has started a church planting movement called Fellowship Bible Church, has his own radio program, and he’s a sought after speaker. In 2011, he edited and authored the Life Essentials Bible, the first QR coded Bible that allows you to link to his teachings as you work through the scripture. It’s such a tremendous study tool.

But above all, Gene is a churchman, and it’s my great joy to have for the first time on Stand at the Gap Today. Gene Getz. Gene, what a joy to have you with us.

Gene Getz:

Hey, Jamie, it’s great to be with you. And you raised the question about, can the church be saved today? It reminded me when I was teaching at Del Seminary, way back to late ’60s, early ’70s, I had a guy in the class who spoke up and said, “Prof, who needs the church?” Maybe the Lord is going to bypass the church. Well, the fact of the matter is he was saved off the college campus, had very little knowledge of the scriptures, but evidently he missed the point when Jesus said, “I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

Jamie Mitchell:

” Amen. Amen.

Gene Getz:

Yeah.

Jamie Mitchell:

Amen. Well, Gene, we have a lot of territory to cover, but I want you to give a brief overview, especially the last 30 or 40 years of what has been happening in the church. What are some of the good and maybe not so good things that have played a role at where the church is at today? And we’re talking primarily about the American church, but in regards to church growth, church styles, church emphasis, these last 50 years, the church has gone through quite a lot of change. What do you see from where you sit here now at this point? Well,

Gene Getz:

In your original script, you said 40 or 50 years. So I’m going to go back 50 years, even a little bit further. And by the way, just in case your listeners are wondering, I can go back quite a ways because I’m 93 and that takes me back a little ways. But way back in the late ’60s, there was a gentleman by the name of Finley Edge, and he wrote something, and I’m going to quote it and listen to it. He said, “Now get this. This is over 50 years ago. At the present time, churches are experiencing a period of almost unparalleled popularity and prosperity. Such a situation normally would be the base for unrestrained optimism and rejoicing. Strangely, such is not the case. Many thoughtful religious leaders and mature Christian layman evidence a growing ferment of uneasiness and concern in spite of plus church buildings, growing membership, and many vigorous activities that are carried on within the churches.

Something is seriously wrong with modern Christianity. Something is wrong at its center. It is in danger of losing its life and dynamic.

Jamie Mitchell:

Wow. Gene, that is incredible that Edge said that. Do you see a correlation with today’s churches in that way?

Gene Getz:

Just sounds like today’s … You read the books by the individuals who are writing about the church, you read articles about the church. It’s the same story. It’s the same comments, same profile. That’s why I chose it. I went back and I read that and I thought, wow, that applies to today. There are a lot of people that are questioning the church, the vitality of the church in spite of the fact that we’ve had tremendous church growth, the megachurch movement, so many things that have happened in building big churches, big church buildings, and yet there are concerns about the relevancy of the church, concerns about is the church what it ought to be today. And you read the literature and a lot of people that are raising concerns about the church. So that’s why I chose it.

Jamie Mitchell:

Gene, we got about a minute left, but if there’s one thing that over these last 40 or 50 years that have contributed to a concern for the church, what might be the one thing that comes to your mind that is probably the greatest concern?

Gene Getz:

Yeah. Let me give you a bottom line and then you can explore it when we come back. But I think that in spite of the megachurch movement, and I’m involved in mega churches, I’ve been involved in them. I’m starting a number of them, but I think that we have missed something in our concern, particularly in the Seeker Movement, we have missed something. And when you come back, I’ll share with you what it is.

Jamie Mitchell:

Well, friends, we’re just getting started. During this break, call your pastor, tell them to listen when we return. What is the condition of today’s church? Where did it go adrift? Gene’s giving you a little taste of what’s to come. This is going to be a great day because we all have a love and concern for the household of faith. So don’t go anywhere. Stay with us here at Stand in the Gap Today. We’re talking about the church with our guest, Dr. Gene Getz. Full disclosure, I had Gene in graduate school and I did get an A for the class and I would like to claim the title as one of his favorite students. However, there probably is a few thousand others who have laid claim to that title. But all kidding aside, Gene, this past year, you issued a new edition of your classic book, which I used in my graduate school class, sharpening your focus on the church.

And the original float out, as you even mentioned, that Dallas Seminary class where students had challenged you in regards to planting and developing a church. Quick question. Why now? Why did you feel it was time to do an updated version of your book?

Gene Getz:

Well, before we go into that answer to that question, Jamie, let me say you were one of my favorite students. I remember you well. You were on the edge of your chair and we had some great times together. But anyway, hey, to answer that question, I feel like I need to talk a little bit about why I wrote the first one and a little more of a detail in the sense that I was challenged by my students to do that. And what it did is that I did something that I’ve not done before and I probably will never do again, but I came to the class in the middle of the semester after that student raised that question about the relevancy of the church and I learned that there were other students who were … They believed in the church, but they felt it had some weaknesses and some irrelevancies.

And so I came to the class, I told them to tear up their syllabus. This is middle of the semester, and you can imagine have all the assignments. And I said, “We’re going to go back to the syllabus, which is the great commission, the book of Acts, the letters that were written to the churches that were founded, and we’re going to go as far as we can go the rest of the semester.” And what that did, it led me to do a number of semesters as we went deeper and deeper and as a result of that, I wrote the book I never planned to start to write, which was chart me the focus of the church. And God used that book to help me start the first Fellowship Bible Church because a group of people, small group, about eight couples invited me to come out and share the essence of the original sharpening book.

And as a result of that, they said, “Hey, let’s start a new church.” And part of the … Jamie, as you know, a major theme in the book is that God has given us absolutes in terms of function and principles, but as the non-absolutes are forms and structures, which are not outlined in scripture, the reason is that we need to take the absolutes and at any moment in culture, apply those absolutes using non-absolutes, which would be the forms and the methods and the structures. And part of the reason that the church becomes irrelevant is that we allow the non-absolutes to get in the driver’s seat rather than the absolutes. And that was the essence of what I shared at that small group, and that’s when they said, “Hey, would you come let’s not be different to be different, but let’s go back to the absolutes and principles and develop non-absolutes, form structures that will be relevant.” And so that led us to start the First Fellowship Bible Church.

I’m not realizing that it would eventuate in a movement. Well, now, to answer your question specifically, here we are some 50 years later, Moody publisher said, “Gene, would you update the book?” And I said, “Well, I’m interested in doing that. ” I got into it and I said to myself, “I can’t update this book. I’ve got to rewrite it. ” Now, obviously that’s updating it as well, but after 50 years going back over what I did initially led me to do a total rewrite of sharpening the focus of the church and incorporating into that new insights, things that I’ve learned over 50 years of church planting, and actually I’ve got eight or 10 new chapters in the book that were not there before. I had to completely, of course, redo the whole cultural section because we’re living in a different world today than we did when we started the first fellowship church way back there in 1972.

Jamie Mitchell:

Well, you know, Gene, as one of your former students and somebody who I can easily say you have been probably the most influential mentor in my life in regards to being a pastor, but you drilled it into us that we start with the Bible, theology, what God’s word says. We run it through history of what has been tried in the past, worked, failed, what lessons we can learn, and then we apply it to culture and asking the question, how do we take God’s timeless truth and bring it alive in our culture today with the proper forms to then impact and effect the people of this day? Gene, as you have rewritten this, as you look at today’s church and today’s culture, what were some of the things that you had to rewrite about and those cultural influences today that are really coloring the church and church ministry?

Gene Getz:

Well, the book, the original book and the current edition still has the basic form looking through the lens of scripture, which is a huge section of the book, and looking at the church through that lens, and then looking through the lens of history to eliminate the things that we’ve done wrong and accentuate the things we’ve done right, and that’s a huge section in itself because we have not only church history, but we have our own personal history, and that’s why I have a chapter in the book, my own personal history, things that I would do differently, and then there’s the lens of culture, which leads to your specific question. My cultural section is totally brand new.

I did relate to some of these issues in the first edition, but here I went into depth on the sexual revolution, which in the last 50 years has been incredible. And then I did a chapter on some of the aspects of sexual revolution, premarital sex, which has become the norm in the culture world and has spilled over into the church, abortion, which is a serious issue, which by the way, a lot of pastors, I would say, I want to be careful, say some pastors just avoid the issue. They won’t even deal with it. And to me, we’re avoiding what is murder, and we need to sensitively address that issue. The whole area of pornography, which is serious the last 50 years with what’s happened with the Supreme Court rulings and so forth, so I deal with that. Same sex relationships and same sex marriage, which is a huge issue today within the culture and spilled over into the church.

And then I still have a whole chapter on racism because we still indeed still have issues with racism. Tony Evans, I used some of his resources. Tony, by the way, was our first full church planting, full-time church planning pastor that we supported from our first church. We supported him financially full-time for three years to start Oak Cliff Bible Fellowship. And by the way, that was a great investment, and it was a very unusual thing for a church in Dallas, Texas back in the ’70s to have a full-time church planning pastor who was African American. And that was a great investment, as you know, and realized. So those are some of the issues that I dealt with in this revision, in an in- depth form.

Jamie Mitchell:

Gene, as I look at the church today, one of the problems I see is that we flip those lenses that you talk about, and the real difficulty is when you start with the culture and try to determine or reshape the Bible to fit the culture, that’s probably one of the real snares that we see happening within the church today, where the church is dictating the principles instead of the principles affecting the culture.

Gene Getz:

Absolutely, Jamie. I agree with that. And I think the intentions have been really above ward in trying to reach the loss, for example. And I think that in trying to reach the lost, we have developed programming that has downplayed one of the most foundational concepts that grows out of scripture, and that’s continuing in the apostles teaching, and the word of God, beginning with the word of God.

Jamie Mitchell:

Amen. Well, Gene for years has said that the certain mandates and certain functions that we have to do, but ministry does take on different forms over time. Our task is to never reject the functions, but to be open to the different forms. And when we return, we answer the question, how do you bring renewal to your church? Stay with us as we’re talking about the church here at Stand of the Gap today. I hope you’ll take time and reach out to your pastor or church leader, encourage them to listen to today’s program, send them the link from our website or from the app. And today’s program is entitled Can The Church Be Saved. And we’re with Gene Getz, who’s been a great help to us already. Gene, you’ve been an advocate of seeing churches experience renewal. They’re not where they need to be. They need to go back into the scriptures and start to developing a clear biblical idea and believing that churches do drift.

They forget what the Bible says about the church. Can you take some time for our listeners and provide some keys to renewal that you have advocated through your writing and through your ministry?

Gene Getz:

Well, Jamie, one of the things that came very clear to me as I went back and redid, sharpening the focus of the church after having done it 50 years ago, one of the things that just stood out to me that is absolute and never changing and is so foundational is what we can see in the first church in Jerusalem. And even though that church, it went down the wrong path, eventually in the extensive legalism and so forth. In its opening days, following Peter’s incredible message, 3000 people responded that were there from all over the New Testament world, the Roman world for that 50 day celebration. They’re all God fearing Grecian Jews who had come for that celebration. 3000 of them responded to Peter’s message, and it says they devoted themselves to the apostles teaching, and the apostles teaching obviously became the word of God. First they spoke and then they wrote, and we have the New Testament basically.

So if we’re going to have a church that is following the will of God, we’re going to have to continue to devote ourselves to the word of God. And to me, that sequence here is very important. It’s affirmed throughout the whole New Testament, and that is that the word of God must be taught. And I believe that we can teach the word of God in its fullness, and unbelievers can respond to that. And we don’t have to water it down. We don’t have to come at it in a way that’s, let’s say, topical, and I believe topics are fine, but if we’re just sort of choose and hunt and peck and say, “Okay, what’s relevant in the society?” I think we can get sidetracked and I believe that we can teach the word of God and we must teach the word of God in a relevant way, realizing that unbelievers will respond to the word of God when it’s taught in its fullness and we don’t have to water it down.

So that’s number one. Also, the second thing, not only did they have this, what I call a vital learning experience of the word of God, they had a vital relational experience with one another and with the Lord and those were integrated, the fellowship, the Koinonia, they ate together, breaking bread, remembering the Lord. And there they were actually remembering what Jesus said.

“This bread represents my body, and I believe they took the wine. It was the gape meal that they were having together and unbelievers were seeing this and even participating and learning what it means to receive Christ and then they devoted themselves to prayer, which was a brand new experience. They devoted themselves to sharing with one another their material possessions, even though eventually they laughed, went back to their homes throughout the Roman world, but the generosity was to continue. And then it says they praise God together, which involved teaching one another with Psalms and him and spiritual songs. So you have not only devoting themselves to the word of God, but to fellowship, relational experiences, this. And then it says, finally, they had favor with all the people and the unbelievers because it says every day the Lord added to the number of those who are being saved.

And so you have these three experiences in sequence, the word of God, relational experiences with God in one another, and vital witnessing experiences with the unsaved world. Now, it doesn’t say anything about form in this passage or anywhere in the New Testament because God wants us to develop reforms that will be relevant in any culture of the world to provide believers with these three vital experiences. And to me, as I’ve gone back and researched the scriptures once again, I’m more convinced that this is foundational and that as churches today, particularly as large churches, we really need to evaluate our methods and our approaches in the light of these three experiences and the sequence that’s involved here. Gene,

Jamie Mitchell:

One of the big issues that I think the church today and what we’ve seen in the last number of years has gotten mixed up, and you taught about this so well, is that the Bible’s very clear that the church gathers together and when it gathers, it gathers to edify each other. And that means the primary focus, the primary audience is the believer, and then it scatters to do evangelism. In many respects in the last number of years, we have forgotten that and it has changed. How has that, as you have seen these last 50 years, what kind of effect has that had on the evangelical church in America?

Gene Getz:

Well, I think you’ve stated it very clearly. The church is to gather for edification and nowhere in the New Testament are we told that the church is structured when it gathers to be focusing on unbelievers, except … Let me say this, Jamie, since I wrote the original sharpening focus, I’ve modified … Maybe I should say I’ve expanded my concept of evangelism, and that is that if you go back to the upper room, where Jesus said to the apostles, “Love one another three times, love one another, love one another so that everyone will know that you’re my disciples. The unbelievers will know that you’re my disciples.” Well, how are they going to know God’s disciples? They have to see us loving one another. So consequently, when the church gathers, it is to manifest this love for one another and for God so that unbelievers that are present will know that we’re our Christ disciples and why?

And then Jesus expanded that concept when he left the upper room with these men heading for the Kedron Valley, somewhere along the way, stalked and prayed. “Father, I pray that these men will be one and all those who believe on me, through them, that’s us, that we will be one so the world will believe that you have sent me. “He’s praying to the Father and there, the essence of that prayer is the coming of Jesus Christ, the incarnation. So how are unbelievers going to see this unity, this love and this unity? They’re going to see it as we gather, not to focus first and foremost with a message to try to reach them, an evangelistic message from the pulpit, but with the way we teach the word of God, the way we relate to the word of God, the way we worship God, the way we relate to one another.

And that’s Acts 242 through 47. It’s being fleshed out the very thing because it says they had favor with all the people. And I believe, yeah, we can reach the unsaved and the seeker, but we’ve got to do it with a biblical approach. And I believe that Acts 2:42- 47 gives us that approach.

Jamie Mitchell:

Gene, what you’ve just said, I think we got to absorb that a little bit because what you just said was that unbelievers may They find their way into a church on a Sunday and be around believers. But the misnomer in the last, I would say the last 30 years or so has been, well, if we have unbelievers coming to our church, we have to be something other than the church. We have to water down our message. We can’t be so fervent in our worship. We shouldn’t be so loving and even prayer. We shouldn’t be praying in front of these unbelievers. It may make them uncomfortable. What you just said was, if they do come in our midst, we’ve got to be the church because that is what will change their hearts. Did I understand you correctly?

Gene Getz:

Absolutely. You stated it very, very well. And I feel like that’s something that I’ve corrected or at least expanded on in my new addition to sharpening the focus because that is so powerful that unbelievers were mingling and seeing what was happening there in Jerusalem. And as a result of that, they became believers. They had favor with all the people.

Jamie Mitchell:

Amen. Amen. If you’re attending a church and you don’t feel that you’re where it needs to be, you don’t need to be a soul winning station. You need to be just the church and the unbeliever will see it and there’ll be changed. They’ll want what we have. Hey, when we finish up with Gene, what must leaders do to bring about change? Stay with us. Well, welcome back for our last segment with Dr. Gene Getz. Doc, I just want you to know that I’m trying to help things out in Indiana, not too far from your home in Francisville in a little town called Winnemac. I am taking the elder board of a church in Winnemac through your new sharpening your focus on the church and they’re loving it. And I know probably our listeners would love to hear how they can find that out. Where can people go to get everything Gene gets?

How can they find about your ministry, the Life Essentials Bible? Where can they find out about you and your resources?

Gene Getz:

Just go to our website, bibleprinciples.org. Bibleprinciples.org is that simple.

Jamie Mitchell:

And they can find all your books, especially this new edition of Sharpening Your Focus, and for sure get their hands on the Life Essentials Bible. It is a real treasure trove for study. Gene, as we wrap up, we know that everything rises and falls on leadership. I always use the phrase speed of the leader, speed of the team. And as you look at the landscape of the modern evangelical church leader, what’s lacking? What should they refocus on if we’re going to change the trajectory of the church? And if we have time, what are today’s leaders doing well from your perspective?

Gene Getz:

Well, Jamie, I would say, first of all, that I want to clarify that when we talk about the church gathered and manifesting true love and unity to unbelievers so that they see this. And as you know, Francis Schaefer years ago said that this was the final apologetic. And by that, he was simply saying that this is the way that we miraculously verify who Jesus Christ really is. That was his prayer there in John 17. And so I think one of the things that we really need to do is to say that it’s not just the church gathered as we do it today, but as the church is scattered throughout the community in home selves, particularly I think is a wonderful way to take this loving unity out into our communities and where we invite neighbors in to see what it means to be a Christian.

And then from there, going even further out with personal witness as we share Jesus Christ. To me, that’s the biblical sequence. And as spiritual leaders, this is not going to happen if we don’t structure it with our team, if we don’t refocus that. And you say, “What are today’s leaders doing well?” Well, one of the things I am … I look at, for example, megachurch pastors and their passion for the lost. That is so commendable and many, many people have come to Christ. I think the only problem there is that in people coming to Christ, they don’t grow spiritually because they’re not getting solid biblical teaching. And furthermore, the believers in the church are not getting good solid biblical teaching. So we need to restructure that and then go from there. And so it’s a matter of refinement and this … I just want to commend pastor leaders.

We talk about changes need to be made, but at the same time we need to say, wow, we’ve seen a lot of great things happen in terms of people coming to Christ.

Jamie Mitchell:

Gene, when you talk about modeling love, and that could be one of the real keys to seeing renewal take place. With the concept of the megachurch and the larger the church it is, it is a problem that the pastor finds himself further and further and further away from the sheep. And as Joe Stoll once wrote, “If you’re going to be a shepherd, you need to smell like sheep.” How does today’s pastor, if he’s in a large church, he needs to get around his people if he’s going to be able to model the kind of love that Jesus was encouraging in John chapter 17. How do we do that?

Gene Getz:

Well, it’s a very difficult situation because you can only relate to certain people, a certain number of people in depth. And so to me, the answer to that is that we need to develop a strong team, a staff team, but also an elder team that has very qualified, godly layman who become pastors with us, who can help mingle with the people, to take the love of the pastor, the concern of the pastor, and model that out through the church. And then it can go even further in developing small group leaders that reflect the love that is demonstrated by the pastor. So the pastor has to build his life into a certain number of people and its leaders. It’s staff, it’s the lay elders, and then working through them out and even expanding this in large megachurches out through home cells, people who will reflect this love and concern.

To me, that’s the only way that that can work in a large church. I’ve tried to model that.

Jamie Mitchell:

Yeah. But even in the small church, Gene, the small church pastor has to smell like sheep as well, and they have to pick up that love and that affection that the pastor has towards the people because that becomes infectious, doesn’t it?

Gene Getz:

It absolutely does. And let’s remember, Jamie, that the most of the churches in America are small churches. And as pastors, we have the opportunity to really be with the sheep. There’s a church of 100 or 200 or 300. I mean, there’s no excuse for not being out with all of those people.

Jamie Mitchell:

So Gene, one last question. You got 30 seconds. Can the church be saved in this next generation? Can we see renewal happen?

Gene Getz:

Absolutely. And Jesus said, “I will build my church.” But he’s given us the roadmap. He’s given us the plan. And if we follow the plan as it’s outlined in scripture, yes, I think the church can become stronger and the darker it becomes in our culture, the brighter our light can shine.

Jamie Mitchell:

Amen. Gene, you’re a treasure to me personally. You’re a treasure to the church. What a joy. Friends, the church is God’s plan A, and there is absolutely no plan B. And if we get back to the scriptures, we do what God’s word says. He has unfolded for us, not only a plan to establish healthy churches, but also the plan and the way to take churches that are struggling, declining, not functioning well, and bring renewal. Listen, we got to get the church right. The world needs it, and we’re dedicated here at the American Pastors Network to do it. And to do it, you’re going to need courage. And so choose courage today, as I say at the end of every program, live and lead with courage. See you tomorrow. God bless you.