Sam Rohrer:                  Now today on Stand in the Gap Today we’re going to talk about something that no doubt all of you who are listening to this program now have encountered at some point. You may be deeply involved in it right now. You may be touching it on the boarders but you know something about it. That issue is debt and the debt trap, as I’m saying it. National debt, State debt, student loan debt, credit card debt, personal debt, debt of all types. We’re going to look at what the bible says about the controlling power of debt and we’re going to quantify the various areas of the explosive, runaway US debt that we’re seeing at all levels. We’re going to talk about what happens when the debt trap actually springs shut. We’re going to finish with some very basic principals about how you can get free of controlling debt, nationally and personally.

Sam Rohrer:                  Our theme for today’s Money Mission Friday is this, understanding the debt trap. I’m Sam Rohrer and I’m going to welcome you today to Stand in the Gap Today. I’m glad that you are with us. I’ll be joined by Doctor Gary Dull and our recurring Money Mission Friday guest, William Parker, Kingdom advisor, Principal of BRI, which stands for Biblically Responsible Investing. BRI Investing which you can find at He’s also the CEO of Grandview Asset Management located in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

Sam Rohrer:                  Let me start by saying that as reported by the website of, which is a good place that you can go. You can just download it on your app or put on your internet and bring it up, It keeps track of all aspects of debt real time. Total US debt recording there, including household, federal, state, and local government is at, get this number, $71 trillion, 71 trillion, 753 billion, 241 million and on down it goes. That’s what it was just a bit ago and it’s climbing literally by the second.

Sam Rohrer:                  Now, when you take and you divide that number, which was the number that I looked at just last night and I’ll give you an update little bit later on here. Divided that among the 329 million Americans, the average national debt works out to $217,000 per citizen. Personal debt, not what I’m just talking … that’s national debt. Personal debt is over $19 trillion with each citizen owing 58 almost $59,000, every man, woman, and child. And by the way, compare that to the fact that the average family has only cash savings of just a little over $11,000. So no matter how you slice it, debt prevails. The red ink is enormous.

Sam Rohrer:                  Is there a way to pay it back? I’m not so sure that there is for the national but in any regard, we’re in trouble as a nation and as most of our people and the debt trap is about to spring. Gary, let me go to you here right off here, for just … I’m going to have to limit you because you can preach an entire sermon and you have because I want to go to William for his perspective but give just a couple of leading biblical principals, Gary, about what the bible says about debt and about the controlling aspect of debt in particular.

Gary Dull:                     Well see, let me try to summarize it by giving a couple of bullet points perhaps. Number one, the bible doesn’t say it’s a sin to borrow. The bible does not say it’s wise to borrow. The bible does not say that god will bail you out if you do borrow. Nor does the bible say that debt is an exercise in faith. I’ve often heard that brought forth but the scripture does teach us very clearly that it’s wrong not to repay our debt. Psalm 37:21 says, the wicked borrow and do not repay. And so if you borrow to the point that you cannot repay your debts, you are what the bible says is wicked.

Gary Dull:                     But then the bible also says that it’s foolish to put yourself into a [shirgy 00:04:23] situation and what that really means is to sign a formal commitment that guarantees somebody else’s loan, that’s not good either. Proverbs 11:15 says that he who puts up security for another will surly suffer. And that’s true but debt may violate two biblical principles that direct our daily relationship with the lord saying that we can build upon that if we had time. Number one, the bible does teach us to presume upon the future. In other words, in James Chapter 4 verses 13 through 15 it says that we should just take it day by day, trust in god and perhaps borrowing money does deny day by day dependence upon god. And then there’s a second principle too and that is by borrowing, we may deny god an opportunity to provide for us. [inaudible 00:05:13] 4:19 tells us that god does supply all of our needs. And so, you know, there’s a lot that I’ve said there but it’s something that takes wisdom and direction of the lord if a person is going to look at this whole concept of debt.

Sam Rohrer:                  Absolutely. Gary, that’s excellent, excellent. Ladies and gentlemen, go back and listen to this program again and pick those up. Those were words of real wisdom. William, let me go to you right now as a Kingdom advisor you help people in their investing and their wealth management planning. What are some of the basic principles that you start off with with those who come to you and you tell them about what they should be thinking about debt and getting in debt?

William Parker:             Well one of the things you said, that every family should have a cash flow sheet of their budget, of what it cost them to run their household and they should also have a net worth piece of paper that tells them their debt versus their assets so they know what their total value of their estate is and that’s a very good place to start. Now once you see that somebody has credit card debt, we try to get them to stop paying into their 401k and rather them putting money into their 401K, they use that monthly or semi monthly, however they get paid, weekly or biweekly, 1,000 or 2,000 dollars to pay down their credit card debt because it’s an 18 or 21% interest. So we try to get them to move from thinking about putting money into their retirement account to pay off their debt.

Sam Rohrer:                  Okay. So you will say very clearly, you’re talking about budget. You’re talking about cash flow, know what’s coming in, know what’s going out. Look at your overall net worth value, all of those kind of things. You’re laying a foundation. You’ll start out laying a financial foundation for people so they know where they’re starting from. That’s really what you’re saying and then you’re saying look what you’re doing. And if you’ve got debt like credit card debt, you’re paying gigantic, enormous sums. Better pay that off before you try to put some aside into an investment or savings plan. I mean that’s just common sense stuff that you’re talking about there.

William Parker:             Yeah. Listen, you can’t have a plan without a blueprint.

Sam Rohrer:                  Very good. Ladies and gentlemen, if you heard only that today when it comes to your finances and debt, have a blueprint. Know the state of your household. You’ve got to know what you’re spending. You have to know what you’re bringing in before you can think about saving or anything else. All of that comes together as a part of it. And Gary, I’m going to go back to you. One verse that also says in Proverbs 22:7 that the borrower becomes servant to the lender. So when you do borrow, you do become indebted to some degree to the person from whom you borrow that money and that’s the potential debt trap that we’re going to talk about in this program today.

Sam Rohrer:                  Well believe it or not, since we started this program just a few moments ago our national debt has gone up $325 million. And total debt has gone up $55 billion, just since we’ve started this program. Now get your head around that, that’s hard to grasp. You know debt in simple definitional terms means something that is owed to another. But the attitude towards debt seems to have changed over the years. Now god says, as I mentioned earlier in Proverbs 22:7 that the rich rule over the poor and that the person who is in debt will become a slave to the person who loaned the money. Now that principle is universal, it applies to all individuals, all families, all companies, local governments, and frankly entire nations.

Sam Rohrer:                  Now in earlier days in our nation, debt was considered to be more of a vice or a misfortune and a condition that would rob the person of their liberty. That’s how Webster defined it in 1829. He actually used that, he said it’s a common misfortune or a vice to be in debt. Webster saying when you run in debt, you give to another power over your liberty. Now that was then. Now today modern definition describes debt … and this I just Google it and I got the current definition. It describes it as a feeling of gratitude, the feeling of gratitude for someone else who lent you something. Now think about that, one it used to be a vice to be avoided, a misfortune that occurred. Now, it’s a gratitude. That’s almost like the more you have, the more thankful that you ought to be.

Sam Rohrer:                  It’s a very strange twist but with this definition, I guess it’s no wonder that 80% of all Americans are in debt, credit card debt that is at least. Two of every three people in a recent CNBC article said that they never expect to get out of debt. They never expect to get out. It’s a lifestyle. 2018 article CNBC said this, “Despite their best intentions, Americans are digging themselves deeper into a hole each year with the average American owing $38,000 in personal debt,” that means credit cards, student loans, car loans but does not include mortgages. And according to Emily [Holbrook 00:10:34], Director of Planning for Northwestern Mutual, she said, “Despite recognizing that debt is dangerous waters, Americans are jumping in with both feet and struggling to stay afloat.”

Sam Rohrer:                  Now William, let me go back to now. You again, you’re a Kingdom advisor, you’re a principal of, you help people with their wealth management. We’ve talked about debt on this program before. We’ve not talked about quite the depth we are in this program but I want to talk to you here just about a couple of things. The estimated amount of personal debt, without mortgage, is 38,000 as I just referenced. When the mortgage debt is factored in, according to the Federal Reserve, that total number jumps to just about 59,000, almost $20,000 more per citizen, man, woman and child. Now, from your experience William, why do you find that people, individuals or families or whoever it is you’re dealing with, continue to pile on debt and spend more than they have despite … as this Emily Holbrook from Northwestern Mutual said, despite recognizing that debt is dangerous waters. Why is that happening William?

William Parker:             Well people basically … First of all if they have access to … You know the banks make money accessible at a relatively low rate, people often times buy homes that are bigger than what they can afford. Rather than looking for something that’s sensible, they look for something as much that the bank will loan them money as opposed to actually looking at their budget to see what then can afford. And usually those are two different numbers, so a lot of times people will buy a home that’s too big or a car that has a lot of bells and whistles that they probably don’t use or understand how to use them.

William Parker:             So I think a lot of it comes from a dopamine sensor that comes when people feel good about what’s happening now and what they’re purchasing now and they’re looking at their home as an investment as opposed to a debt that eventually one day they’ll get to sell their home and generally, that doesn’t happen. A lot of times I’ve found that when people say they’re going to downsize when they’re in their 60s, they actually sell their home and end up spending 100 to 200,000 dollars more on a smaller home.

Sam Rohrer:                  I think it’s interesting, you mentioned as well, there’s a … You used the word, you said dopamine type of a response. There’s almost an exhilaration when it comes to this kind of thing. Is that what you’re saying?

William Parker:             Yeah. I think spending or buying stuff that you really don’t need but when you pick up something in the store do you think about, do you really need it? Is it really going to change your life? Do you really have to have it? Is it going to have an impact on you and your family? And 9 times out of 10 it’s something that you’re buying it because you want it as opposed to, you know, you need it. How many pairs of shoes does one person need, for example? You know and a lot of people just buy … They’re spontaneous. They buy in a store because they see that it’s 40% off. They don’t realize that the 60% they’re spending is 60% that they really don’t have.

Sam Rohrer:                  That’s why we’ve heard these stories of folks going to the store and come back home and they say, “You know what? Today I saved $100.” Well how did you do that? “Because I bought something on discount,” as you talked about but you ended up spending $300 to get to that 100.

Sam Rohrer:                  I’m going to shift to the national but ladies and gentlemen, just as we’re covering this very big topic today, that practical thing that William just said there is something we all need to really, really keep in mind and we live in a consumer society. We’re bombarded everywhere. If you use your iPhone, you’re getting adds all the time, internet adds all the time, radio adds. We live in a place where we are bombarded regularly and I believe that what William said there is true. Sometimes we get an exhilaration out of buying and actually being led by somebody else but we’re being led into a trap.

Sam Rohrer:                  Let’s shift to the national debt now William. The national debt is that which is owed to the Federal government and according to the US Treasury, total national debt is $22 trillion, just about to turn over that number right now. It’s an astronomical number. 10 trillion more dollars than in the last 10 years. When you divide that among 329 million Americans, which is the number that’s officially being used now, that’s $66,000 per citizen for that portion of it. Now the US Treasury says that the total, when you put in everything, total personal, nation, state, local, that rises to just about $72 trillion. When you break that out? $218,000 per man, woman, and child. Over $850,000 per household.

Sam Rohrer:                  William, these numbers are beyond comprehension and yet it’s almost like we’re living in a dream world. Now I ask you why you thought individuals plunge into deeper debt and you gave a really good response. Let’s go to government. Why does government, at all levels, with people who ought to know better, why is that happening on a much larger scale just adding a few more zeros to the end? Why is that happening in government?

William Parker:             Well I think the straightforward answer there is that they have no problem spending our money. They look for reelection. They’re looking towards what they can bring back to their districts. You were in state government, you understand this probably more than anybody that a lot of representatives and a lot of people like to bring money back to their districts. And the best way to do that is increase the national debt and bring back money for infrastructure or whatever it may be. We’re just going to borrow more money to do that. Yes, it may create jobs and yes we do have a failing infrastructure system but I think politicians have no problem with spending our money. They don’t look at it as … They spend it because they think that they’re not immune to being voted out of office.

Sam Rohrer:                  I think and I agree, William. I was in office and I voted on a lot of state budgets and I tell you, it is that very same way, what you’re saying it’s somebody else’s money. It’s really easy and some cases if you’re not careful, it’s fun to spend somebody else’s money. And I will tell you that also, William, because you’ve been in office at the same time when you go in office and you’re out and when there are term limits talked about and so forth and you’re gone, you ultimately don’t have to face the music. But somebody’s going to face the music. And ladies and gentlemen, I’m putting this discussion here today in terms of a debt trap because when you spend money, whether it’s your own money or it’s somebody else’s money, but if you spend what you do not have somebody is being borrowed from. In other words, somebody is lending that money. That debt trap is being set and at some point that debt trap is going to spring shut.

Sam Rohrer:                  Now in this next segment, we’re going to talk just a little bit more just taking us to the natural next step, what happens when the debt trap springs? Because it will spring shut. It’s a principle.

Sam Rohrer:                  If you are just joining us right now, we’re in the middle of talking about debt today, understanding the debt trap. It affects us all to one degree or another and if you’re not in debt, I guarantee you it’s because you took very clear, specific action to make sure you’re not there. Because it appears the default position in America is to be in Debt. The default position is to be in debt. It takes work not to be in debt and I’m telling, you don’t want to be there. You want to be free of it because that’s what scripture says is good but in practical terms we all know have a lot of freedom when you’re not in debt.

Sam Rohrer:                  So listen to the program again. I encourage you to Pick up this program again, archive form. And because of its value, I’d encourage you to take and promote it to your friends on Facebook. Twitter it out there. Go to Stand in the Gap Radio Facebook page, however you communicate. Communicate this program and all of the programs that are carried here because it is truth and it’s practical and we do a lot of work in trying to put things together and I really truly, truly hope that it’s something you can use and again, let us know if god is benefiting you through the program.

Sam Rohrer:                  All right, let’s go in now when the debt trap springs in this segment and my opinion, incurring debt and spending what you don’t have, be that personal or in government is little different than a heroin addict who just always needs a little bit more. But like the addict, debt distorts perception. It provides only for temporary pleasure and it ultimately explodes, leaving a broken independent person. The question isn’t can we continue to spend into oblivion with no consequences. It is when will that debt trap close. When will the addiction to debt overdose? We’re going to talk about that now is when the debt trap springs.

Sam Rohrer:                  William, I Googled the phrase here just a while ago debt quotes and I got a lot of interesting ones. Here’s one, President Alexander Hamilton from long ago is quoted as saying, “A national debt, if not excessive, will be to us a national blessing.” Interesting. His key phrase though, as I picked out there is if not excessive. Now I couldn’t find that he defined what that means but I can surely say that in no uncertain terms, our debt today is beyond excessive with interest payments alone on the debt rising in 2018 by $62 billion or 20% just this year, as estimated by the Congressional Budget Office. And over the next 10 years, interest on the debt alone will be $7 trillion and will exceed the military budget.

Sam Rohrer:                  William, where is the breaking point and what will happen, nationally speaking here, when that national debt trap is sprung? Because we can’t go on like this forever.

William Parker:             Well I think it all revolves around GDP and tax. I mean Rome tried to tax their way into prosperity and it obviously didn’t work. What I see coming down the pipe, especially with change in leadership, after the Trump administration if the Democrats were to get into power that they would have no problem with raising the taxes on the middle class and the wealthy because they’re so dependent on … Well in our country, the reason they don’t want to build a boarder wall is they want these immigrants to come in and vote Democrat, in my opinion. So I think that there is a breaking point that if the powers change in Washington DC and they start to increase taxes, that’s the only way we’re going to be able to pay this debt back is to actually increase taxes.

Sam Rohrer:                  Okay but William, my question to you is really this and I’d like you to answer this the best you can, there is a limit. We’ve been acting and walking like Alice in Wonderland here and the debt just keeps going up and up and up and people say, “Well there’s an end to this.” But it appears there’s no end. William, what’s the breaking point? What’s going to make that happen nationally? What could make it happen nationally?

William Parker:             I think when it becomes insurmountable that, for example, at 67 or 66,000 dollars debt per citizen or $178,000 per tax payer. You know when that gets to be 300 or 400, 500,000 dollars per tax payer then they’re not going to live long enough to pay that much tax back into the ocean.

Sam Rohrer:                  William, in reality nobody knows. We have that debt but nobody feels that debt. Somebody’s going to feel that debt and that’s national.

William Parker:             It’s going to be the next generation.

Sam Rohrer:                  I know but I want to go here. What’s going to trigger that? Because right now you and I are having this conversation now. We had this kind of conversation 20 years ago and our predecessors were talking about it way back and Presidents have talked about it all the way back and yet we still go on today and appear to be doing just fine, even though these red numbers continue to grow. How long can that happen?

William Parker:             Same as you and on my personal opinion, I think it’s gone too far already.

Sam Rohrer:                  That’s what I’m asking you. See, in other words, like a volcano that’s been simmering for a long time any number of things could make this lid blow off at any point. Right? Or why not?

William Parker:             No one wants to talk about the 9,000 pound gorilla in the room but when it comes down to Washington, they want to talk about foreign policy with the Paris Accord or they want to talk about what Trump did before he was the President or news is rotating around who the next person is going to be fired in the Trump administration. The news cycle of 24 hours a day is anti-Trump but nobody’s focusing on the left or the right on the actual national debt. No one’s talking about it. You know we had 0% interest rates for eight years during the Obama administration and no one said anything about that. When he doubled the amount of national debt during his eight years in office and yet no one wants to take responsibility for it.

Sam Rohrer:                  Yep. I think that that’s the key word for it William. Nobody wants to take responsibility because who is keeping the government to the proper accountability? And I think that that’s a real issue today. I agree with you there so many times. They promise that they’re going to reduce the debt and become more frugal in spending but the debt just keeps going up and up and up. And so along that line, let’s talk about a Christmas movie. Remember It’s a Wonderful Life that had Jimmy Stewart in it and the Scrooge banker was Mister Potter? And if you recall, at the worst possible time he sought to call in the loan of the Bailey’s savings and loan. And just like he had been calling for the mortgage loans for the average people in town and many people were falling on hard times.

Sam Rohrer:                  So William, my question to you is this, who is it in our country today who would serve as the Mister Potters and that is the lenders who would call the loan back from the federal government? I mean who is it that’s going to bring the federal government back to the point where they’ve got to get right in spending all of this money and the debt that they are incurring?

William Parker:             Well I mean China owns a lot of our debt. I mean a lot of countries could create problems for us if they were to go out on the bond market and start selling our bonds at a discount. That could be a really big problem for the United States. I’m not saying that will happen but you know, it’s very easy for the current administration, whatever and I’m talking about today. I’m also talking about eight years from now. It’s very easy for the current or future administration to say, “I didn’t create this problem. I didn’t double the debt from 10,000 to 21,000. I got stuck with it but I didn’t create it.” That’s really the mentality right now in Washington, is they say look at the debt that it doubled during the past eight years and I wasn’t responsible for that but how am I going to fix it?

Sam Rohrer:                  And they keep kicking it down the road. What’s going to happen if China would come along and say, you know, “We want you to pay us back everything that you owe us in the next 30 days”? What would happen?

William Parker:             I think it would create a big problem in the stock market. That’s a very big possibility that would create a big problem in the stock market.

Sam Rohrer:                  All right so in reality-

William Parker:             Actually the bond market. The bond market is actually larger than the stock market is. So it can create a problem in the bond market.

Sam Rohrer:                  So in reality, William, Gary brought up the illustration of Mister Potter. He was really out to control the town and he was going to take advantage of every opportunity because he wasn’t concerned about giving people the freedom and letting them live independently. He wanted the control. Now we brought up China. We know that we have borrowed a lot from China. China’s increasingly not our friends. They are our enemies. If they were to call the loan, how would that happen? I mean you don’t have much time to answer it but could they be the Mister Potter?

William Parker:             My understanding, and I’m not an expert in China affairs or world affairs, but on my understanding is that they could create a false narrative for the value, the bond to the underlying bonds or the credit worthiness of the United States. If we didn’t show or have the capacity to pay the bonds back in time or when they’re called so it could create a national problem.

Sam Rohrer:                  All right ladies and gentlemen, all we’re trying to show here is the principle that when you borrow, there is a Mister Potter out there and he can call the loan. And they don’t call it at a time of your convenience. They will call it at a time of your greatest need. And yet, we believe and go on as if this is not going to happen. These are principles we can’t avoid.

Sam Rohrer:                  Well as we continue into the last segment now, I will tell you that the debt clock has continued to run. Matter of fact, since we’ve started the program today I’m watching a real live update as put out by the Department of Treasury and the Federal Reserve that approximately, because it’s changing even in the last two seconds it has changed … But just since we started the program over $2 billion in debt have increased nationally at the total debt. And the national debt has gone up $375 million just since we started this program.

Sam Rohrer:                  So as they get a handle on how this happens and whether we think about it or not, when you go to sleep at night the debt keeps climbing. When you get up in the morning and go to work, the debt keeps climbing. I advice everybody just to go and pull up this clock here. The It’s a phenomenal thing to look at because the numbers are running and they’re running in the wrong direction, fast. That’s the debt trap. The debt trap is a universal trap. It’s small enough to catch the small and seemingly insignificant. It’s large enough to catch and hold the largest and the strongest of nations. It has brought some nations, like Rome, like William talked about earlier, it’s brought them to their knees.

Sam Rohrer:                  The result however, is always the same. The one who sets the trap, the lender, the Mister Potter, they will end up in control. And they will determine the future of the victim that’s become trapped. The other thing is true on the other side, the victim, the prey, you could put it that way depending on the prey, the one who is in debt is always the one who’s freedom and liberty has been short circuited and who’s life and future now lies totally determined by the one who set the trap. And the example we’ve used today in this program, debt is a trap that makes the borrower a servant to the lender. If the lender, like a Mister Potter, calls the loan, the trap is sprung and getting free is either impossible or freedom is lost permanently when it comes to nations like the Rome of old and Venezuelas of the current and so forth, other countries and we’re right there.

Sam Rohrer:                  Until the trap is sprung though and the loan is called, every effort must be made to get out of debt. In this last segment we’re going to take and talk about a few practical steps that you can take personally. William, I would like you as a wealth advisor, Kingdom advisor himself and you are the principal of, which is where people can go to get assistance on all of the kinds of thinking that we’re talking about here and how to invest properly, I would like you to give our listeners right now just a couple … however you give them, basic principles, simple things that people can do in order to remove themselves from the bondage of debt. This point let’s think personally. The national is pretty much out of our control but it’s something that we need to be concerned about, without a doubt. But personally, if someone’s in a position where they’re in debt or struggling what are some things that they can do to get out of the bondage of debt?

William Parker:             Well Sam, I just had to make a minor correction. You can reach me at

Sam Rohrer:                  Oh, okay. I meant to say that. I don’t know what I said but don’t repeat what I sad.

William Parker:   

Sam Rohrer:                  Okay.

William Parker:             Well one of the things you can do is if you don’t have … One of the things you can do is defer you’re 401k payments that you’re putting into your retirement account to pay off the credit card debts because your 401k is not going to guarantee you an 18 or 21% return but I can assure you that Visa, MasterCard, or American Express is going to collect 18 or 19 or 21% on the other side. So you’re better off actually trying to pay down your debt than actually, in my opinion, putting money into the future because the debt is just … will continue to pile up. You’ll never be able to pay it off.

Sam Rohrer:                  Okay, great.

William Parker:             The other option that people have is if they have equity in their home, it’s much cheaper to pay 5 or 6% interest on a home equity loan to pay off a credit card which is charging you 18 or 19%.

Sam Rohrer:                  Okay. So you’re just basically said, again … As you said from the beginning, do a budget. Understand your cash flow, what’s coming in, what’s going out. Look at your net worth. And if you are sitting … Particularly you called out expensive credit card debt because any credit card debt is expensive. Don’t try to put things into savings until you get your credit card debt paid off, even if that means you … ladies and gentlemen, if you have equity in your home paying 5% you may be better off taking some out of that and get your credit card debt paid off. But then I must say, please if you’re in that position don’t go back into getting into credit card debt. Once you get free, stay out of it. So that is really practical things there from William Parker.

Sam Rohrer:                  Gary, let me go to you. You’re a pastor. You sit on top of a church ministry. You have other ministries you’re involved but I know that you have also counseled who knows how many people, families and all that, over the years who have come to you, no doubt, because their families are a mess perhaps. Maybe they’re facing divorce because finance is one of the biggest causes of divorce, debt and all that kind of thing. What are some basic principles you tell people when they come to you relative to getting out of the bondage of debt?

Gary Dull:                     And so many people are in debt to the point that they can’t even give to the work of the lord. And you know, I always bring that up. You know, the further in debt one is, the less they can give to the work of the lord and therefor, I sometimes believe that the devil is the one who allows people, or I should say maybe even leads people into debt. I should probably say it that way. But just a couple of things to take into consideration, I always encourage, number one, ask the people to seek god’s wisdom because James 1:5 says when we ask for god’s wisdom he gives it. Secondly, pay the tithe. I really believe that there are promises in the scripture that are very clear that when you give first to the lord, the lord is going to bless. Number three, cut up those credit cards. Get rid of them and start paying them off. Number four, I usually encourage people to pay off their smaller debts first. And as they count those off, then they can begin to work on the larger ones. But then number five, I say this, get yourself an accountability person who can help you walk through this on these issues.

Gary Dull:                     In fact, I think people who are in debt should get a good financial counselor. You know, maybe like William Parker or somebody else to help them because it can be complicated. It can be done but they need the right advice and the right accountability.

Sam Rohrer:                  Gentlemen, these are just excellent, excellent, excellent, excellent. Gary, I’m going to repeat yours. Seek god’s wisdom. Pay your tithe. Give to god first what he commands to give first. It’s amazing when that is done, how he can many times, most the time, perhaps all the time make what else you have be spent better.

Gary Dull:                     Well there’s a promise there, you know.

Sam Rohrer:                  I know Gary. That’s why I kept going onward. It is a promise ladies and gentlemen. So it is there. Cut up your credit card debt because that’s one that 80% of Americans are in bondage to right now. Start with paying off your smaller debts first and then get an accountability partner. We don’t teach finances sufficiently in our churches. We’re not teaching it in our schools and it’s very clear that those in government, setting government policies, know nothing about basic financial principles either. Otherwise they’d set a better example. So that is Gary’s purpose or saying, seek out an accountability partner meaning go and find a financial advisor, a wealth manager who knows biblical principles. And we’ve talked about Kingdom Advisor type principles … I mean advisors that are out there. William Parker’s on this program. I mean, we’ve [inaudible 00:37:10] the kind of discussion we’ve talked about today. Go and seek him out. If you have another one close at hand, go there but if not go to the website bri, Biblically Responsible Investing, .com. And then you can get lined up in that area.