Sam Rohrer:                  Well welcome ladies and gentlemen, I want you to stay with us and listen carefully to the program today. We’re going to reveal critical information about two critical national security threats facing this nation. Now I know there are more threats than these two but I’m choosing what’s perhaps the leading internal threat and the leading external threat. Both are in headline news but they’re not going to be covered as pointedly as we’re doing today on this program. Our theme is this, National Security at Risk Within and Without. I’m going to tell you up front that the external threat we’ll identify is China. We’re going to go in depth at the bottom of the hour on China, on both the threat and the reality of this concern and you’ll understand it when we share this information with you. Our special guest and fully qualified to speak on China as our external threat and the internal threat which we’re going to get off into almost immediately, his name is Frank Gaffney, he’s the executive chairman for Center for Security Policy, and he’s also the vice chair for Committee on Present Danger, that being China.

Sam Rohrer:                  With that introduction, let me welcome you to this vital and cutting edge program Stand in the Gap today, I’m Sam Rohrer and I’m going to be accompanied today co-hosted today by Dave Kistler. I want to bring in immediately to the program Frank Gaffney who is calling in from Washington D.C. right now. Frank thank you for being with us today.

Frank Gaffney:              It’s a delight to be with you guys, thank you so much for having me.

Sam Rohrer:                  Frank let me set up where we’re going to go here because you know the last two plus years, as we get into this internal threat, this country, all of our listeners understand this, we’ve been subjected to a historic, in my opinion distortion of justice by the media, and the justice department and many others in regard to what we now know is a proven Russian Trump campaign collusion hoax. In my words, as I’ve said many times on this program, that it has been a calculated attempt to enact a coup d’état against a legitimately elected President, it is serious. Now I want to ask you Frank for your opinion on the level of this seriousness that you see by this attempt, and if in fact it rises to the level of a serious internal, national security threat. But before you answer that question, I want to play a short clip for you and all of us and our listeners. This is an answer by Attorney General William Barr, just made before the United States Senate Appropriations Committee where he announced in essence a shift of the justice department from investigating to investigating the investigators. If you could Tim, play this clip for us.

William Barr:                 I am going to be reviewing both the genesis and the conduct of intelligence activities directed at the Trump campaign during 2016. A lot has already been, a lot of this has already been investigated and a substantial portion of it has been investigated and is being investigated by the office of Inspector General at the department. But one of the things that I want to do is pull together all the information from the various investigations that have gone on including on the Hill and in the department and see if there are any remaining questions to be addressed.

Speaker 4:                    Can you share with us, why you feel a need to do that?

William Barr:                 Well for the same reason we’re worried about foreign influence in elections we want to make sure that during elect, I think spying on a political campaign is a big deal, it’s a big deal. Generation I grew up in which is the Vietnam War period, people were all concerned about spying on anti-war people and so forth by the government and there were a lot of rules put in place to make sure that there’s an adequate basis before our law enforcement agencies get involved in political surveillance. I’m not suggesting that those rules were violated but I think it’s important to look at that and I’m not just, I’m not talking about the FBI necessarily but intelligence agencies more broadly.

Sam Rohrer:                  All right Frank, you just heard what Attorney General Barr said. I’m going to ask you this, does the corruption of the justice system with all of the Mueller investigations and the ability for our justice system to actually be corrupted where law enforcement can actually be used to spy on private citizens and political campaigns as indicated there, does that rise to the level of a national security threat and if so, Frank, why?

Frank Gaffney:              Sam, I think this is a huge national security problem in several different respects. The first is that instead of actually addressing the problem of Russian intervention in the election campaign, with the appropriate target in mind, we had many instruments of the United States governments formidable intelligence and counter intelligence and law enforcements leadership and apparatus diverted onto a non-vector of Russian influence operations or intervention if you will in our election. The distinction is this, Hillary Clinton, her role as Secretary of State and her campaign were deeply tied to the Russians in a number of different ways and she was in fact intended to be a beneficiary of Russian help in the form of this [inaudible 00:06:39], that Russian intelligence contributed to in the form of Russian influenced Ukrainian … officials assisting as well and that influence operation, that connection to Hillary Clinton represented, I believe an extraordinarily dangerous threat to our security.

Frank Gaffney:              Let me just give you one example, one of the things that Hillary Clinton did, there’s been a lot of talk about this Uranium One Caper where she sold off the substantial portion, at least 20% of our Uranium reserves to the Russians. Uranium of course being the feedstock of nuclear weapons. But another less noted example of what she did as Secretary of State was she presided over and helped engineer the transfer of a great deal of technology from the United States to the Russians under the rubric of something called, well I’m hearing the music coming up, let me take this up on the other side but there’s a powerful story here we need to tell and we’ll further develop the answer to your question on the other side.

Sam Rohrer:                  All right Frank, we will do that.

Sam Rohrer:                  Welcome back to Stand in the Gap. Today we have, covering a very critical theme here, national security at risk, we’re talking here in this first half about internal security risk and that is in fact what we’ve been seeing happening with the investigations, and we played the clip from Attorney General Barr who was effectively saying that the shift of the justice department is now moving towards investigating the investigators and before Frank Gaffney who is our guest, before I ask you to complete your answer and further explanation, we’re talking about the connection with what was happening with the Clinton campaign.

Sam Rohrer:                  Ladies and gentlemen I just want to say that when our system of justice, which hinges on impartial enforcement of the law based on the law, and administered equally to all, when that system or those people in that system prostitutes themselves and that system is subverted by the very people either elected or appointed and sworn into their positions by taking their constitutional oath to defend justice and the law, when that happens, then justice and civil freedom is severely threatened and that’s the issue of national security threat.

Sam Rohrer:                  The shift announced by Attorney General Barr in that clip we just played, to now investigating the investigators will in all likelihood, in my opinion go all the way to members of the justice department, the FBI, possibly the CIA, members of Congress, members of the NSA, employees or contractors of the Democrat National Convention and the Committee, members of the Obama Administration, members of the media, and potentially Hillary Clinton and Barrack Obama themselves because if justice is going to be done, its got to be done thoroughly. It has to be complete. Now to give some further insights on that, we’re going to go back now to Mr. Frank Gaffney, wearing his hat at this point as chairman of the center for security policy. Frank just before we left on the other side, you were about to give us another example of some involvement with Hillary Clinton who I just mentioned and what they did in selling critical information to the enemies. Talk about that more.

Frank Gaffney:              Yeah just to wrap this up and there’s so much to talk about here, I just want to make sure your audience is aware of one particularly egregious example of the national security threat that Hillary Clinton’s operations and ultimately her campaign I believe represented and during her time as Secretary of State, as I said, she undertook to facilitate the transfer of sensitive dual use technology to the Russians, including hyper sonic rocket technology. As you probably know guys, those hyper sonic rockets are now in Russia being utilized or adapted for the purpose of threatening this country with nuclear attacks against which we currently have no defense.

Frank Gaffney:              So instead of focusing on that sort of real, I think Russian intervention, the relationships that almost certainly would’ve prompted Putin and his team to want Hillary Clinton to become President, we had this false narrative manufactured. A colleague of mine, Diana West has written a magnificent short book on the subject called the Red Thread, which, and you all, you can download it for free at, our center’s website but there is a very important part of this which is critical to our understanding of what happened here. There was a hack we’re told by the Russians, of the Democratic National Committee in the course of the Clinton campaign. The upside of which was, it revealed that Hillary Clinton’s campaign had colluded with the Democratic National Committee basically to deny Bernie Sanders the nomination.

Frank Gaffney:              It was a terrible embarrassment and there was suddenly this narrative pushed out by the Clinton campaign by the way, that the Russians are involved in trying to get Donald Trump elected and from that point forward, as I say, instruments of state power, you mentioned a number of them Sam, the Central Intelligence Agency under John Brennan and various persons in the intelligence community, James Comey and Andrew McCabe and others at the FBI, Jim Clapper, the director of National Intelligence.

Frank Gaffney:              And yes, I think you’re absolutely right, people elsewhere in the Obama administration including Samantha Power of the United Nations, Susan Rice the National Security advisor to the President and almost certainly Barrack Obama himself because at one point he famously said, in the cover note, a note that I should say was designed to cover, I think expose behind, that’s why Susan Rice, Britain on the day of the inauguration of Donald Trump and she was on her way out the door, saying, “That President Obama had said at the meeting which she and others were involved, ‘We’ve done everything by the book.'”

Frank Gaffney:              Which suggests that he knows exactly what was done, it turns out it wasn’t by the book and what we’re hopeful now, praise the Lord for Bill Barr and praise the Lord now for this fellow John Durham who he’s appointed, a U.S. attorney in Connecticut with a pedigree of busting dirty cops and other corrupt officials. They are now on the case and as you said Sam, they’re going to be investigating the investigators. They’re going to be investigating specifically the people who promoted this false narrative, who lied about it to the FISA court, who otherwise distracted and ultimately they sought to sabotage, take down the Presidency of Donald Trump, having failed to prevent him from becoming President.

Frank Gaffney:              Last point just on this, I think what’s so critically important when you’re thinking about he security of this country, is these internal threats, whether they’re people who are abusing their power in government or whether they’re Islamist’s, or whether they’re others who are operating inside our country, we have to recognize those are mortal threats, every bit as much as what people outside of this country are trying to do to take us down as well. I swore on oath, the assistant to President Reagan, to defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic and so I think it’s so important that you’ve devoted the time today to make sure that we’re clear of it, we’ve got them. Including I think, those that we’ve mentioned here from the Obama years who’ve done incredible harm to this presidency and to our country in the process.

Dave Kistler:                 Frank, let me ask you this, there’s a lot of names I’m sure that are yet to be named but let me just throw out a few names, James Clapper, CIA director John Brennan, FBI director James Comey, these are people that are in key positions or have been rather, in key positions of authority. Can you speak to what you know to be their motivation that would cause them to conspire to subvert the justice system and try to literally overthrow a legitimately elected President?

Frank Gaffney:              Dave, this is the money question that nobody has, I think practically nobody has even asked let alone answered and I hope this will be part of the investigation of the investigators. I mentioned Diana West’s book, the subtitle of Red Thread is a Search for the Ideological Drivers in the Anti-Trump Conspiracy, and what she describes in this again, very readable short book is, very many of the people involved in this anti-Trump conspiracy had in their background, ties to or at least sympathies for communism. Not just socialism, not just progressivism, not just liberalism, not just leftism, communism, including John Brennan, you mentioned, the director of the Central Intelligence Agency actually acknowledged that he voted for Gus Hall.

Sam Rohrer:                  Isn’t that incredible?

Frank Gaffney:              The head of the communist party in the United States for President as an example.

Sam Rohrer:                  Frank, isn’t that an incredible thing? I mean what you’re saying right there-

Frank Gaffney:              Stunning.

Sam Rohrer:                  Is an amazing thing. I hope ladies and gentlemen you heard what Frank Gaffney has said and that question that Dave posed to him, because it does go to the heart. I do hope Frank, that it is in part, part of this investigation because what you’re saying there is about the only thing that makes sense when you see a group of people actually violating the constitutional oath and working against the entire intent and purpose of the justice system. This is a big deal.

Frank Gaffney:              It’s a very big deal and here’s what Diana concludes, just to you know cut to the chase, you’re talking about people and it’s not just Brennan by the way, Comey, it’s people with a lot more theological background than I have, you’ll appreciate Reinhold Niebuhr was his you know sort of inspiration and Reinhold Niebuhr was a communist for heavens sakes an extreme, you know hard left theologian yes, but very much in viewed with Marx’s tendencies. That was the guy who, Comey to this day describes as kind of his mentor, his theological and intellectual mentor. He said, “I was a communist, I’m not sure what I am now.” That’s a quote but here’s the point, we’re talking about people who were so committed, it wasn’t to Hillary Clinton.

Frank Gaffney:              I don’t think it was to any particular love for her or for her campaign or her you know, platform, it was they were revolutionary’s who sought to transform America fundamentally as Barrack Obama promised and who saw in Donald Trump their worst nightmare, a counter revolutionary. They were determined to do everything they could, the old ends justify the means you know, the classic Leninist tradition to stop this counter revolutionary and his undoing of the revolution that they had so successfully mounted.

Sam Rohrer:                  We’ve looked at internal threat, I just went through that but our national security threats are not only within but they are without and I’m going to suggest in here, it’s the same worldview, it’s the same atheistic ideology, communism that’s behind it when we look at perhaps our greatest external national security threat and threat I’m going to say, my opinion to world freedom and that ideology is wrapped up in a big government and that’s called China. We’re going to talk to Frank Gaffney, same guest but he’s going to put on a different hat now because he’s also the vice chair of the committee on present danger, which that present danger is China.

Sam Rohrer:                  So Frank, let’s continue now and shift gears but we’re staying in the same orb here more or less, I think and you can comment on it, but it seems to me that President Trump, probably the first President to ever truly confront China is we now know toe to toe on trade negotiations. We know, and it’s clear, and we talked about it on this program, China seeks world domination, we know that they’re involved in theft of intellectual property, they’re building up their military right and left and now they are threatening, in their terms, “A peoples war,” against the United States in regard to the trade negotiations, they’re threatening to dump U.S. treasury securities and for those who know what that means, that could be a big deal, but I’m going to ask you, Frank, how much of a threat is China and in what area or areas do they pose the greatest threat to U.S. national security?

Frank Gaffney:              Sam, thanks for taking this topic on as well, just as kind of a Segway from what we were talking about, I couldn’t agree with you more, that the ideology, that we’re worried about, it comes in different brands and you enumerated many of them, but fundamentally what they all have in common is a totalitarian form of governance that crushes freedom and insists that everyone submit to the state, the caliph, to a law, to the party, I mean whatever form the elite takes it has this common denominator it is antithetical to what we believe, what we cherish and what we practice in our country, specifically enshrined is inalienable rights from God in our Constitution and other founding documents. This is really the existential threat of our time. Something again that my old boss Ronald Reagan warned, every generation had to face and you and I have worked for many years Sam about the problem that’s been evident for, well decades now, in the form of what I think of as Sharia Suprematism, Sharia being of course that doctrine of Islam that I know you preach about a lot on this program and elsewhere.

Frank Gaffney:              But in addition, and now emerging evermore formidably is another totalitarian ideology and actually sort of a throwback to earlier times. They call themselves communists, the communist party of China specifically is the driving vanguard of this ideology these days. Their practice of communism is more like fascism you know they do entertain state capitalism and it’s very carefully controlled and it supports the interest of the state rather than a free market but it’s basically, theologically and in terms of governance a totalitarian system modeled after communism.

Frank Gaffney:              It is vastly more dangerous, what the Chinese Communist Party is doing today, and has now been for decades, is vastly more dangerous than any other threat we face from the North Koreans, from the Iranians, even from the Russians because it is so multifaceted because there is a powerful economy behind it, and because it’s leader Xi Jinping, the President for life now of China, has made no secret of the fact that he intends to destroy this country, to supplant it as the dominant power of the world and turn it into a fascial state of China and we can talk about the ways in which that’s being done if you like but it’s a formidable present and growing danger.

Dave Kistler:                 Frank, let me ask you this, obviously there is an alliance that’s growing between China, Russia, Iran, I’d love for you to comment on the increase in China’s threat level with respect to that relationship bu ti also want to ask you this if I can, we talk a lot on this program about the Red Marxist axis and the Green Islamic axis, the red Marxist axis being China, Russia, Cuba and then the Green Islamic axis being Iran, [inaudible 00:24:28], Turkey and the influence in Venezuela. So can you talk about China’s growing influence in all of those area’s I’ve just mentioned?

Frank Gaffney:              Well it’s, we’ll just need another couple of hours to do it, but yes. In short form, China is actively involved in various ways with all of the bad actors that you’ve just mentioned. It is the driving force behind the proliferation that has given rise to threats like North Korea for example. There wouldn’t be a North Korean regime let alone threat to us if it weren’t for communist China and I believe it is intent on maintaining and intensifying that threat not helping us eliminating it through de-nuclearization alas. The Russians and Chinese have been at each others throats in the past but for some years now they have been making a marriage of convenience, Russia has been sharing lots of military technology, has been enabling the colonization by the Chinese of Siberia and otherwise supporting what China’s doing to become a do challenger to the United States and ultimately I think they both hope its successor as the dominant power of the planet.

Frank Gaffney:              Not least, Iran, they are very actively involved in buying Iranian oil, circumventing sanctions and otherwise trying to prompt up the regime there even as they’re doing the same for Nicolás Maduro in Venezuela. So virtually everywhere you look, where there are prominent threats to this country, at the state level China is involved. In addition it is doing its level best to mount threats to us in its own right and they run the gamut from economic warfare, which the Chinese have been waging against us at least since 1991. They call it unrestricted warfare by the way, and that really apply describes the fact that it’s not just economic, it’s influenced operations, it’s information warfare, it’s the threat of electro magnetic pulse attack against our electric grid. It’s the kinds of asymmetric threats that could pose a threat to our country in a variety of other ways. It’s the domination of strategic choke points all over the planet, manufactured islands in the South China sea for example, both ends of the Panama Canal, the Caribbean, Freeport, and Bahamas. The west and east coast of Africa and of course throughout Asia, increasingly now into Europe itself under the guise of this so called Belt Road Initiative. I could go on and on.

Sam Rohrer:                  Frank, Frank-

Frank Gaffney:              These are the sources of the present danger.

Sam Rohrer:                  We’ve got about 30 seconds left but I want to ask you to make a connection, all of this that you’re describing didn’t happen over night, it didn’t happen in the last two years, it’s maybe being confronted by the President right now but this happened under the last regimen. Is this same kind of conspiratorial attitude, in your mind, atheistic world view kind of perspective, part of why China has even been able to reach this perspective without past administrations dealing with it?

Frank Gaffney:              I think administrations of both parties have enabled what the Chinese are doing. I think yes, the last administration was good with it ideologically, and the others have been happy to do it for business reasons.

Sam Rohrer:                  Boy oh boy, ladies and gentlemen, the straight shooting here today.

Sam Rohrer:                  Well as we now move into our final segment, ladies and gentlemen, if you’ve enjoyed the program today, tell a friend about the program, that’s how people find out about what happens here and I would say, without fear of any kind of contradiction, the kinds of things that you’ve heard here today, not just in the quality of the information but the putting together, the connecting the dots between for instance, the ideological underpinnings of these things that we’re talking about and the emphasis on truth and justice and all that we know, this is not what you hear in this kind of combination anywhere else.

Sam Rohrer:                  There’s a reason for that and that’s why we try to deal with issues from a biblical worldview perspective, biblically based and constitutionally consistent as we say because that’s the framework in which we have to approach all the issues that are before us and certainly that’s happened today I believe with our guest Frank Gaffney as we’ve talked about national security at risk, both within and without. Now we’re on China here right now, and I want to conclude with the China reality. We talked about threats but this is a reality.

Sam Rohrer:                  You know the very real and present danger of China as we’ve heard about externally is perhaps enhanced by what I’m calling the China reality, not the threat, the reality because the threat to freedom around the world is already being evidenced and can be measured by what’s happening to the elimination of civil freedom inside the boundaries of China. That the Chinese communist government, right now is smashing down the Iron Fist of totalitarian control over their people. They are involved in mind control, that’s out there, that information’s there. Biometric tracking, social score monitoring, all these things we’ve talked about on this program and even to this point, on this program some time ago, we talked about the Chinese communist government is actually rewriting the bible. That’s right, they’re rewriting the bible to change it, to alter it, to elevate the communist government hierarchy into an equivalent position of God, so that anybody that does read the bible gets a view of the Chinese government as God.

Sam Rohrer:                  Now is that shocking? It ought to be. But you know, there’s even more happening and I want to go now to Frank Gaffney and who are wearing a different hat right now, because he also leads the group Save the Persecuted Christians where he’s the president and CEO of that group, and a group in which I’m associated on an advisory level as well. So Frank, I want to go right to you, you’ve been full of information today and it’s been very helpful but what do we know about the level of totalitarian actions already way down the road in China as to the control of its people and controls in such a way that threatens freedom and brings, not just a threat but the reality of China and the reality of what’s actually happening. Share with us what you know.

Frank Gaffney:              Sam, let me pick up with what you were talking about a moment ago because I think it’s absolutely critical to think about this in light of your question. George Orwell in his wildest imaginings, I think could not have come up with the kind of system that communist China is now putting into place. As you mentioned, they call it the social credit score system. It is a surveillance apparatus that will literally be able to track every human being in China, more or less 24/7 based on their facial recognition or even their walk recognition that can be monitored by 10’s if not 100’s of millions of cameras across the country.

Frank Gaffney:              The output of which will be collected by quantum computing and artificial intelligence and processed through data mining with a view to enabling the state or the communist party more to the point, to be able to dictate all aspects of the lives of those citizens by a carrot and stick kind of arrangement. You get a good social credit score on the basis of conforming to the party line, ratting out people who aren’t or otherwise currying favor with the Chinese communist party, you will have access to jobs and apartments and travel and food and the rest of it.

Frank Gaffney:              If you get a low social credit score because you are not conforming to the party line, you are not with the program of the Chinese communist party, you are associating, whether it’s with political opponents of the regimen or faith communities, including but not limited to Christians, well you’ll get a very low social credit score. Such that you may not be able to get apartments or jobs or travel or even food perhaps. This is another words, a means of exercising dominion over the people of China.

Frank Gaffney:              And your point about rewriting the bible, I think they’ve already gotten this down to nine commandments because of course that first one is kind of a problem. If the Chinese communist party is God after all.

Dave Kistler:                 You’re right, you’re right.

Frank Gaffney:              Right, so this is what they’re doing and the implications of it for people of faith, whether they’re Christians who are being brutalized and having their churches blown up, they’re being forced to practice, if they can at all, in underground institutions and there’s now a bounty for being given information, the state being given information about those underground churches or who’s practicing in them. The Falun Gong of course are another faith tradition, they’re having their organs harvested. Then there’s the [Uyghurs 00:34:35] the Muslim sect out in the western parts of the country, they’re being thrown into concentration camps, some of which, by the way have been outfitted with crematoria, does that sound familiar?

Sam Rohrer:                  Frank, Frank, I know, Dave’s got a question but we’re about out of time, but you know what you’re describing? Yes you do know what you’re describing, I’m not asking you in that kind of, a rhetorical question but what you’re describing is everything we have heard, we have gone through the whole holocaust observance again. You’re describing all of the worst things that I can think of that have happened in the forms of persecution around this world at the hands of totalitarian government but put on steroids.

Frank Gaffney:              Right. Here’s the way I think of it Sam, there’s a history here of course, of horrific human rights crimes and abuses by totalitarians, think of Pol Pot in Cambodia, or Adolf Hitler in the Holocaust or Joseph Stalin in the Soviet Union or Mao Zedong in China. You put all of them together and the number of people they killed pales by comparison by the number of lives that are being destroyed only this is happening in our time.

Frank Gaffney:              Specifically to Christians, just Christians alone as you know, there’s something like 245 million of them that are being heavily persecuted around the world today, some in China, some in a lot of other places. Oh and by the way, the thing that’s chilling about those social credit score technologies I mentioned, is China’s exporting them around the world as some of their offerings of the Belt and Road Initiative. There will be more people enslaved, there will be more people persecuted, there will be more people dying at the hands of totalitarian’s in the future thanks to what the Chinese communists are cooking up and by the way, some of the funding for the surveillance technologies and the like are being provided by us.

Sam Rohrer:                  [crosstalk 00:36:32] Frank, in five seconds, we’ve got to go, in five seconds, website, where can people go?

Frank Gaffney:              So many,

Sam Rohrer:                  [crosstalk 00:36:38] okay, ladies and gentlemen, I’m just going to give that,, and just think of what we’ve been talking about today, China as an external threat, already doing internally all the things we’ve talked about. If they are allowed to go forward, that methodology can be applied worldwide including us, we’d better wake up and wake up soon.