This transcript is taken from a Stand in the Gap Today program originally aired on Dec. 22, 2020. To listen to the program, please click HERE.

Sam Rohrer:                      Hello, and welcome to this Tuesday edition of Stand in the Gap Today. I’m Sam Rohrer and I’ll be joined today by Dr. Gary Dull. In just a moment, we’re going to be joined as well by Mark Lerner. Mark is considered to be one of the nation’s, if not perhaps nation’s leading expert on biometrics and surveillance. He talks a lot about what it is, how it works, and what Christians and all of those who love freedom should know and do about it.

                                             Our theme for today’s program is this, the 2020 surveillance state, 2021, even more alarming. Now, in earlier programs I’ve dealt with aspects of the surveillance state. In a lot of different ways, we’ve touched on this and illustrated from time to time. But this program is going to be a program focused in its entirety on this theme. In the past, we’ve talked in terms of totalitarian ideologies, like Marxism, Islam, globalism, and others who are unrestrained morally, who have no fear of God before them, and who at the very heart of their ideologies pursue the control of all people, a desire turning society from freedom to bondage and from life and prosperity, which is a result of doing what God says to do in a society, turn it into death and misery.

                                             Now, we’re seeing just a small evidence of this strategy to deceive and to steal as we speak, as we are observing what’s happening around us now, the recent cyber hacking, as an example, and infiltration of our entire government-wide computer system, our information systems, the voting machine manipulation that’s coming, and now coming like a freight train down the tracks, COVID vaccinations, which are going to be forced, mandated, or at least coerced. That’s going to be linked to, well, everything, tracing, travel, employment, banking, buying and selling, and more.

                                             Now, we’ve discussed on this program, communist China, who probably has implemented, at this point, the most Orwellian type of total state surveillance system in their country. We’ve talked about that before, where they actually are able to the point of rewarding those who submit their minds and their souls and their body to the state. They are great at punishing those who fear God, love freedom, and choose not to worship the state as God. So I invite you to put aside your busy-ness, if you can, and listen carefully as we identify state surveillance you can sometimes see. We’re going to do that next.

                                             Segment two, we’re going to talk about invisible state surveillance, what you don’t see. In the segment three, biometrics, the linchpin of the surveillance state, and then in segment four, we’re going to conclude by bringing some perspective to all of this as we share just a bit about state surveillance and the end times. With that, let me welcome in right now to the program, Mark Lerner. Mark, thank you for being with us again.

Mark Lerner:                     My pleasure. Looking forward to the show.

Sam Rohrer:                      Mark, we have a lot to get into, so we’re going to get right into it now. So this is where we’re going to go. Before we get into the invisible means of state surveillance in the next program, which you’re going to take and lay out, let’s identify just a few things right now that would kind of fall into that category of visible surveillance. I put it in this way. Sometimes we can see it, and sometimes we can’t. If you look for it, you can find it. I’m going to say red light cameras, as an example, would probably be in that category, would it not? Identify a few others for us? And then we move forward.

Mark Lerner:                     In addition to red light cameras, we see other surveillance cameras that are not on red lights or at red lights. We see cameras on the back of police cars. This is what we call automatic license plate readers. They can capture tens of thousands of license plates in just a couple minutes to see if people have insurance or warrants, things of that nature. We’re pretty familiar with drones. We know they’re out there. We don’t always see them. So these are examples of the kind of surveillance that we do know about, but we don’t really think the camera’s over pointed at us. We think it’s always pointed at just bad actors, and that’s not true.

Dr. Gary Dull:                    Well, and that’s an important and a serious thing to take into consideration. Mark, it’s a delight to have you back with us again. In light of what you’ve just said, if you don’t mind, I’d like for you to make some quick comments as to the stated purpose for these more visible scenes of surveillance. I mean you’re not going to have any government official who will say that the license plate reader or the CCTV camera or the red light camera is designed to fulfill big government’s desire to control people. So what are the official reasons that they give for such surveillance?

Mark Lerner:                     The best example I can really give isn’t actually about cameras. We passed a law in 2005 called the REAL ID Act. It required everybody to submit to a high-resolution, digital facial image that’s compatible with facial recognition technology, which allows us to be tracked and identified regardless of where we’re at. Now REAL ID we thought, many people, it would stop people in the country illegally from being able to get around, get on planes, or even drive. We thought it would help stop, prevent, whatever terrorism. So we thought a lot of things about REAL ID would be beneficial to protecting us, when actually it was designed watch us.

Sam Rohrer:                      Mark, that’s a big deal because on that issue, you and I, for disclosure purposes for those listening, you and I actually worked together on trying to bring to light the real impact of REAL ID Act all the way back in the 2000s, and we’ll touch on that again a little bit as we get into the program. But let me, before we get out of this first segment, let me ask you this question because many people listening right now would say, “Well, when I think of surveillance, I think of communist China.” There’s a lot that’s happening there.

                                             But Mark, really what’s the status of surveillance in the United States, frankly, and the rest of the world? Ar

e we way down that path too?

Mark Lerner:                     We’re way down that path, to use your words. We don’t think about we have cameras on our front door, Ring cameras. Businesses have cameras. Churches have cameras. There’s cameras everywhere. But we don’t think about those cameras being linked together so law enforcement can take advantage of them. So this is what’s happening in what we call smart cities. Home cameras that you have to protect your own home, business owners who have cameras in case they get robbed or whatever the case may be, all these cameras, in addition to law enforcement cameras, are being linked together.

Sam Rohrer:                      Okay. Hold it right there, Mark. That’s the point, ladies and gentlemen, things visible, things invisible. We’ll go into greater detail. But the linking of these, what Mark was talking about is significant. We’ll talk more about that in the next segment. Our theme today, the 2020 surveillance state, 2020, even more alarming.


                                             Our theme for today’s program is this. We’re talking about the surveillance state, kind of where we are in 2020 and the direction things are going and where things may be as we head forward. I’m Sam Rohrer accompanied by Gary Dull today and our special guest, Mark Lerner. He’s co-founder of the Stop REAL ID Coalition and the Constitutional Alliance. He has a website which I’d encourage you to visit, a lot of great information there, easy to remember,

                                             Well, in life, there’s A universal and biblical principle. There’s many of them, but one I’m pulling out now that focuses on our issue today and that is this. In scripture, God says that there is a visible world which we can see as evidenced by creation. But He also said there’s an invisible world, one that we can’t see, a spirit world typified by the illustration that we wrestle not against flesh and blood, those things we see, but against principalities and powers and spiritual wickedness in high places, things we don’t see.

                                             As we all have no doubt acknowledged at some point in our life, similar aspect of this when we’ve said, “It’s not what you know that’s the problem. It’s what you don’t know.” The idea again, what you see, what you don’t see. We’ve been reminded of this principle this year in 2020, haven’t we, when our lives have been literally turned upside down by something we couldn’t see, a virus. Well, so it is in the realm of surveillance in a godless globalist state of mind, which these individuals, like roaches, run from the light. They have goals and strategies which must be done in secret lest their deeds be made known.

                                             The verse that stands out to me is one the Christ Jesus Himself said in Luke 8:17, but He reminds people, “For there is nothing secret that shall not be made manifest, neither anything hidden that shall not be known and come abroad.” So with that in mind, let me go right now back to you, Mark Lerner. On your website,, you have a great statement there. It says this, “A free society and a surveillance society cannot be reconciled.” I’m going to say they just simply don’t work together and they cannot walk together.

                                             So I agree with that statement, Mark, and in this segment, I’d like for you to now identify a number of surveillance mechanisms. You mentioned a couple just at the end of the other segment that though designed to perhaps to be invisible and hidden are very prevalent and likely affecting all of our lives from time to time. We’re all caught up in this. Name a few of those more again as we go into the section a little bit more.

Mark Lerner:                     One big one is what we call keystroke technology. This allows law enforcement or government to basically tap into your electrical lines and they can tell not only what you are typing on your computer, but who is doing the typing by the way the keys are hit. So keystroke technology would be one. Smart meters is another one that allows government or law enforcement to know what you’re doing in your home. Then there’s a third one that’s much more devious.

                                             When our government becomes aware of malware that somebody may create to steal information from our computers, our government doesn’t always tell the public about the malware. Once the government knows, it uses the malware for its advantage so it can see what we’re doing. So these are examples of things we don’t see.

Dr. Gary Dull:                    And again, that causes great concern as well. You know, Mark, the recent cyber attacks that have literally compromised our voting systems here in the United States and, even now, our military and entire government computer and information systems have been hacked. That’s very, very alarming to us, as well as to the entire nation. It’s almost like an act of war against us. But my question to you is what extent are computers, the internet, and digital information systems involved in this invisible state surveillance system.

Mark Lerner:                     They’re very involved. I can tell you, I’ve had the benefit of speaking with Bill Binney and Kurt Wiebe, who are two former NSA whistleblowers. The one thing they’re looking at right now that most of us don’t think about is called digital or mobile ID. That’s where you download an app from state or federal government and that application allows you to use your smartphone as your identification instead of a driver’s license. Both Bill Binney and Kurt Wiebe will tell you there is no secure smartphone. There are no secure apps. I’ve been warning people about this for a number of years. Your smartphone is just like a computer. Your computer, everything you do on it is visible to government.

Sam Rohrer:                      All right, Mark. You brought that up. Let’s make it practical because most of our listeners, you, me, Gary, have a smartphone. Most do. There are some listening who don’t, I know that, but most do. Let me go to this practical aspect. On smartphones now, for many of them, they have an ability where you can actually put in your face as a facial recognition that can allow you access to your financial apps and that kind of a thing. I think you’re referring to that. Let me just ask you a practical question. Good idea or very bad idea for someone to do that? If you submit your face and you put it in your machine, does it go somewhere else? What’s the downside/upside of this? Talk to us about that.

Mark Lerner:                     First of all, the government already has your facial image. They have it from their Department of Motor Vehicles. In Pennsylvania, it would be PennDOT. But even the federal government, the FBI has the facial image of one out of every two adults in the country. The smartphone gives your location up, but it gives up so much more information. But once you become reliant on it and you can’t really exist without it, then government really has control over you.

Sam Rohrer:                      Now, that’s an interesting thing. All right. So you didn’t answer my question directly, but you kind of did. So should a caring, thoughtful person say, “I will not use my smartphone and not give, for instance, access my apps with my facial recognition?” Should that be done or not done? Or are you saying they already have it, so what makes the difference?

Mark Lerner:                     I’m telling you right now. I’m speaking for myself, but the members of the Constitutional Alliance Board, we do not use smartphones. I use a flip-up old 3G phone. I’m not connected to Wi-Fi at all. We do things out of convenience and Brother Gary brought it up early. He raised the issue of why do we use certain things. We’re told they’re to make our life easier or it’ll protect us, like the REAL ID Act. In fact, and I want to add just this one minute in, I’m warning every listener.

                                             The REAL ID Act has official purposes that the secretary of Homeland Security can add to and, under a Biden administration, a fourth official purpose will be in order to purchase a firearm you will have to have a REAL ID-compliant license, creating a de facto gun registry. So surveillance is all=encompassing.

Sam Rohrer:                      You have made a lot of that clear. We have time here. You also made a question. I want you to expand upon it just a little bit. That is this. You said that when information goes to the computer system, your smartphone or whatever, it is collected and it goes everywhere. When you and I were working on REAL ID years ago, there was actually a component of that that went international as well. So talk about how broadly, when you say it’s connected and this information goes around, how broadly does the information collected in this surveillance system, which there are many multiple points of collection, how broadly does that go, Mark?

Mark Lerner:                     It goes internationally. When we adopt new technologies, we’re also adopting international standards. The only reason for international standards is what’s referred to as global interoperability. What this means for US citizens, our government has agreements with countries all over the world to share by biometric data. So whether you’re in Paris, France, or Paris, Texas, you can be identified using facial recognition because of international standards and global interoperability.

Sam Rohrer:                      Okay. With that, that’s going to take us right up to a break here. So let’s just hold that for now. Ladies and gentlemen, you’re listening to Stand in the Gap Today. I’m Sam Rohrer, Gary Dull with me today, our special guest, Mark Lerner. He is the co-founder of the You can find information there. Our theme is surveillance. Actually, it’s surveillance state. We’re talking about those many examples of things that we can see, CTT cameras, red light cameras, all that kind of thing that you can see, they’re visible. But we were just talking there about how many tracking mechanisms are invisible, like your smartphone and many aspects about it we don’t think about, that is all connected. Yes, literally connected around the world. When we come back, we’re going to go more deeply into the matter of biometrics, which literally is the linchpin of the surveillance state.


                                             Well, it’s great to be with all of you today, wherever you are listening across the country. Some live right now, many delayed throughout the balance of this day. But on behalf of myself and Gary’s on the program, and the entire team, Dave Kessler and Joe Green, Isaac Crockett, Keith Wiebe, our producer here with us, Tim Snyder, all of our team, we want to wish you a very, very Merry Christmas. That’s hard to believe that this is that week. But in light of all that is going on, isn’t it great that in these days we can know who is in charge and that the God who loved us so much that sent Jesus, His Son, to die for us is the one who is still in charge?

                                             Even though we may not be able to see it, all these things, all the details that we’re talking about today and on all of our programs, the Lord knows about. He really does. Our effort is to try and align ourselves with the truth and take the truth and measure it out and lay it out on top of what we see happening. That’s what the Lord wants us to do. Hopefully, that will be the case. Anyways, I just wanted to pass that along to you and just say we are so glad that you’ve been a part, you are a part of this program.

                                             Really consider praying for us and committing to pray for us in a renewed way. So very, very important. We understand that we are engaged in spiritual warfare. When we talk about the things we do in this program, we’re in that realm. We know that. We need your help in partnering with us in prayer. We really, really do. We also need your help and consideration to partner with us financially. It is one of those things that’s just the way it is. We all know it. You need food to put on the table. You need money to buy the food to put on the table. We have costs that are associated with this ministry.

                                             We’re very wise and careful in how we use it, but we need your help. You can partner with us and lay a treasure in heaven. Really, you can. We can assure you that it’ll be well-spent. So go to our website, Give online on our app or drop us a note. All right. In a godless and freedom-rejecting view of life and government, surveillance is essential to the control of people. I mean doesn’t that makes sense? Communist China, think of that. Okay? But the control of people and bondage and slavery of people, though we wish not to think of it, is really the stated goal of all worldviews to one degree or another, except the Judeo-Christian biblical worldview of life and living.

                                             Think about it, Islam, globalism, communism, Marxism, and all others have one thing in common, a few rule the many. So while the control of people have always been the goal of those who reject the biblical model of freedom and life and living, the advance of digital communications, which we now have, computers and the internet, these all have made global surveillance and control now more possible than ever. People 40 years ago have no idea. They could only envision. We now can actually explain it.

                                             But while surveillance is a strategy to achieve the goal of control, may I suggest that the linchpin of surveillance is the usage of biometrics. Mark, I want to get back to you now right off. In that last segment, you brought up biometrics. We’ve talked about it. You and I tried to oppose the use of biometrics in the REAL ID Act and, in particular, as a part of the surveillance state. But as we get into this, I would like you to do this for me please, define biometrics so our people understand what that is. And then tell us why you say it is, in fact, the linchpin for surveillance and control.

Mark Lerner:                     Simply, biometrics broken down, bio stands for the body. Metrics are measurements or numbers. So biometrics become the number of each person or man. When we think about biometrics, here’s the way to think about it. I can know who owns a car, who owns a house, but that doesn’t tell me the person driving the car is the owner of the car. For that, I need biometrics. I could see people walking into a home. Even though I know the owner of the home, it doesn’t tell me each individual person walking into that home, if they’re the owner, do they live there or are they a guest? So biometrics will identify you, supposedly. It doesn’t identify you by your name, but by your numbers. Because biometrics are, in fact, you need measurements of the body for each person. So you’re identified by numbers, not by your name.

Dr. Gary Dull:                    It’s interesting. When we talk about the surveillance that’s out there and what you can put on your front door or around your home, we are often told that we need to put up these cameras for our own safety and security. But just like everything else, Brother Mark, it can be used out of context and even in a lawless way. We’re seeing that so much today. So, as it relates to the concept of biometrics, I think that the next logical question is what can we do about the use of biometrics as it relates to general surveillance is concerned? I’m sure that the average person listening to us even today are saying, “What can I do?” They’re filled with concern as we were talking, and we all should be. So what can be done?

Mark Lerner:                     States are starting to take up legislation. As a matter of fact, the Constitutional Alliance will be writing legislation that would create a ban on the use of facial recognition technology. Gary, you hit on a really good point. Everything we do we think about in terms of safety or convenience. We need to look forward into scripture and understand there’s a process playing out with the surveillance today and how that surveillance will be used going forward by, let’s say, the Antichrist to control all people at that time.

                                             So we have to get away from relying on convenience and safety as reasons to accept things and start asking, what’s the downside? So we’ll be offering legislation to protect or to ban the use of facial recognition and other biometrics.

Sam Rohrer:                      Mark, though, in reality, I think that’s an appropriate thing to do. We talk a lot about where we are right now. Believers need to pray because we’re engaged in a lot of the invisible. We need God’s strength, two. We need to stand for the truth and witness for the gospel. And three, we need to resist the forward movement of evil at every opportunity we can. So that’s what you are talking about there doing as a part of strategy with the states. But I want to go back, if I can, have you build on it just a little bit.

                                             You made an interesting comment that when it comes to biometrics and we’re talking in this case, facial recognition, but you explained it better. It’s voice pattern that’s unique to us. It’s our fingerprints that’s unique to us. It’s our DNA that’s unique to us, those kinds of things. It’s all those things. But you specifically used the reference about facial recognition, that it’s really it comes down to being a number. That is interesting. Build that out again, if you don’t mind.

Mark Lerner:                     It is a number. All biometrics are a number. Yes, I used facial recognition as an example, like who’s actually driving the car or walking into a home. But there’s voice recognition as well. So I may give one of my children my phone or allow a stranger to use my phone if they have an emergency. Their car’s broken on the side of the road. It’s broken down. Voice recognition allows for the user of the phone to be identified and the federal government, the FBI, devoted a whole year to focusing on voice recognition and collecting the voice recognition pattern of innocent US citizens.

Sam Rohrer:                      Okay, Mark, you got a minute. I’m going to bring some application into it. Okay. We have a distinct voice pattern. We have a distinct facial pattern. That information is now in the hands of many who are government-related. What do they use it for? What will they use it for? What’s the downside of the fact that they have it?

Mark Lerner:                     Great question. If we go back to the McCarthy era, the idea was everybody was a communist, unless you could prove you weren’t. So we tried to determine who was a communist based on what people were saying about their neighbors or other people. You don’t need to go through that exercise with biometrics. I can see what you’re doing, where you came from, where you’re going, who you’re with. I can tell all kinds of things without having to ask anybody anything about you. I can literally know what you’re doing in your home from the time you get up till the time you go to sleep and everything you do in between when you leave the home.

Sam Rohrer:                      Well, there you go. I’m sure people’s minds are saying, “Wow, I hear a lot there. What does that really mean?” I’m just going to summarize it, ladies and gentlemen, very quickly this way. Government is trying to do this. The best way to guard yourself, remember is that the Lord is recording everything we do and even what we think. If we keep ourselves right before the Lord, then I can count on Him helping me when times of difficulty come. That’s where we’re going to go a little bit in the next segment when we talk about surveillance and the end times.


                                             For any thinking person, the aggressive globalist push toward world government which has really now become undeniable for that person, it is concerning. But can I submit that for any thinking Christian person who understands biblical prophecy and the end times, which the Lord talks to us about so clearly in portions of scripture, Matthew 24 is a great one, great location. When we consider that, I’m going to submit that it ought not be concerning as in the sense of those who have no hope, the unsaved, but who do see a loss of freedom coming. But rather that these days should be perhaps, can I say, invigorating, motivating.

                                             When we consider the big picture, the big picture of what the Lord talks about, this big picture of God, creation, sin, the fall, and redemption, that aspect where we know the Lord is going to return, that big picture, when we consider that, surveillance tracking and tracing, government control of information, the advancement of deception and false prophets that the scripture talks to us about and that we can see all around us and now actually using the coronavirus vaccine and government solution with this vaccine and all that goes with it.

                                             That’s already being tied into travel and banking, employment, leisure, even buying and selling. All of a sudden, these pieces begin to fit. State surveillance and the end times and the rise of the Antichrist then all really began to fit together. It’s appropriate that we think in these terms and we discuss it. So I wanted to talk about these things today on this program. But when we know the truth, anticipating the return of Christ should make all of us who know the truth, as I’m saying, to be invigorated and motivated to sit up, take note, stand up, speak out for the truth.

                                             Mark, you and I have spent a lot of time over the years talking about this issue of surveillance, comparing notes, what we know, what we see, what we don’t know, looking at what scripture says, applying it to what we see. So we’ve done a lot of that. We’ve talked about some of those things here today. But I’d like you at this moment now as we try to wrap up the program, take just a few minutes and answer this specific question.

                                             In light of all we’re talking about, how does all of this developing move towards state surveillance impact the church now, perhaps, and down the road soon? For many who are unprepared, who aren’t even aware of this, it perhaps could be a threat. If it’s a threat, why is it? So tie those couple things together for us as we try to bring this to a practical conclusion.

Mark Lerner:                     Okay. Well, let’s start with Isaiah 46. God saw the end before the beginning. So God warns us. He tells us what’s going to happen before Christ returns. Christ Himself told us if we look at Matthew 24. So we see there are things that are going to take place. Now, to what end, well, the end as far as the antichrist is or goes is a one-world religion, one-world governance, in other words, global governance. So we need to look at things today and ask ourselves, “Here’s what the Bible says.” Always go to the Bible first, the Word of God. Look at what’s happening today and say, “How do we get from where we are today to where God clearly tells us we’re going?”

                                             Christianity would never be accepted as a one-world religion. We know that. You have Islam and other religions. So the idea is to create a universal religion that everybody will accept. So Christians along this timeline, the idea will be to, through the chilling effect of surveillance and other measures to turn Christians into being apostate, to fall away from the truth. We have to be prepared. Our lives are moving in that direction. Yes, we should be joyful Christ is coming, all these things. But be prepared for the things that are going to happen, such as persecution. How are we going to preach the gospel when we know the Antichrist and others today even, they don’t want the gospel preached?

                                             How are we going to make disciples? How will they know if we’re doing these things, they being the watchers? It will be through surveillance. So we, as Christians, are going to have targets on our backs and so are the Jewish people, which is why we see anti-Semitism on the rise. All these things are pointing towards being in the last days and looking for the signs of the times. Surveillance allows for being able to see what everyone is doing, controlling them. If they go against the norm that the state wants you to do, because of surveillance the state will know it. So we should be opposed to surveillance, period. Unless there’s probable cause or a warrant, we should not go along with surveillance.

Sam Rohrer:                      Mark, that’s a great way to kind of put it there. And again, we’re using the word, ladies and gentlemen, resist evil wherever and however we see it. We advance the truth. What’s the Word of God say about how we should think, about how we should act and all of those things? By so doing, we will to some degree resist the evil, but that’s how we bring these things together. It’s an active motion, the Christian life is.

                                             Gary, we only have just a little bit of time left here, but you are a pastor of a church. You have people that are under your care as sheep are under a shepherd. Just your thoughts as you are approaching these days and as we look, taking this information and looking into next year and perhaps what you are going to be talking to your people about as a direction to go into 2021 with these things in mind.

Dr. Gary Dull:                    That’s very interesting. I think this was a very good discussion. Mark, thank you very much for being with us. One of the thoughts that came to my mind as Mark was talking there, Sam, is how very significant it is for us as Christians to live the kind of a life that will draw attention to the Lord. A number of years ago, I remember I read an article that said that every one of us have about 65 people watching us every day. But that was years ago. With the surveillance that’s out there today, we have no idea who is watching us or where they are watching us from.

                                             Therefore, I think it’s important to reflect the Lord Jesus Christ in all that we do. We know the Lord is watching us, as you brought out earlier, and we are going to give an account under the Lord for what we do. But realizing that people are watching us from all over the world, let’s reflect Jesus Christ. Let’s do as the Word of God tells us in the Book of Philippians chapter 1, to make the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ becoming, so that whatever they see in us, they will see the Lord Jesus Christ reflected.

                                             The negative side of the surveillance is out there and we are opposed to it, as Mark brought up. But let’s take advantage of what we can with it and live the Christian life and show Christ to those who are watching us and watch how God will use that for His glory.

Sam Rohrer:                      Amen, Gary, that’s a great summary. Mark, thank you for being with us today, tremendous information. Ladies and gentlemen, go to his website,, a lot of information that we talked about today and more. Go to our website, This program and so much more is available there. Again, thank you for being with us today. Take this information, think about it, use it, commit it to the Lord, and then go out and stand in the gap.