This transcript was taken from a Stand in the Gap Today program originally aired on March 4, 2021. To listen to the program, please click HERE.

Sam Rohrer: When evil increases and lawlessness arises, and our God-given rights are assaulted- which they are- how should we respond? I know, you’ve thought about that, ladies and gentlemen, because I have, and people are thinking about this all across the country. Here’re some options: Do we resist? If so, how? Do we oppose? If so, how? Do we patiently endure, and why? Do we just go along to get along? Well, in Modern America, the assault against God’s truth and God’s pattern for life and living, and His definition of morality and truth and right are all being attacked and redefined. The result is that, as Romans 13 refers, the “sword of justice” given to civil government, is beginning to swing against those who do right and to defend those who do wrong. Just the exact opposite of God’s design! So, how do we respond?

With that, I welcome you to Stand in the Gap Today. I’m Sam Rohrer. I’m going to be joined, again, today by Pastor Gary Dull and, in just a moment, by Pastor, Matt Trewhella. He is the pastor of Mercy Seat Christian Church in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. He’s the author of a book that is increasingly under demand, and you will want to get it — “The Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrates”. We’re going to explain the meaning of that phrase as we go through the program. Now, I’ve chosen this theme for today’s program, because one of the most prevalent questions that I get – that freedom-loving citizens are asking all across the country- and people that I talk with in positions of authority in office, pastors, professionals and business-owners alike. They’re ultimately, and probably everyone of you listening to me, asking the same question. That is, where do I draw the line? How far do I go before I say, no, to governmentally-imposed dictates which conflict with our constitutional guarantees of rights given by God, or I believe, that the Bible teaches? The title for today’s program is this, Drawing the Line for Truth: Biblical Interposition and the Culture.

Now, we’ve talked about this principle of interposition on multiple occasions on this program before. But I believe it’s time to address it again. In the program today, we’re going to define the term, interposition. We’ll discuss the leading reasons why this principle is demanded. Its time has come. We’re going to describe what biblical interposition looks like. And then, we’re going to close with some ways that you can apply this very biblical and lawful principle. All these, right here today, on Stand in the Gap Today.

With that, let me welcome, right now, calling in from Milwaukee, Wisconsin, Pastor Matt Trewhella. Matt, thanks for being with us again.

Matthew Trewhella…: It’s good to be with you, Sam.

Sam Rohrer: Matt, you are doing a lot of speaking on this issue. This book that you wrote, The Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrates, I think it is something, as we’ve talked about, whose time has come. It’s a principle that, now, comes to a point of real, true application. Like I always encourage our team to do on the program, and that is to define the terms. We wanted to find a couple of terms here to help establish ourselves as we go into this program. The first one that I want you to

define- since words mean things and we better be careful what we permit the words mean – and that’s the word of, interposition. Sounds like a big word but it’s not. That’s pretty simple. What does interposition mean?

Matthew Trewhella…: It means, to interpose. It means, to stand in the gap between the oppressor and its intended victim. It can be done verbally or it can be done physically. We have many examples of this in scripture. Ezekiel 22:27 to the end of the chapter, talks about the importance of interposition. For someone to stand in the gap when there’s evil going on in the land. Of course, a classic example in scripture of interposition that your listeners will readily remember is the Hebrew midwives. They were told by Pharaoh the King to kill the male Hebrew children. Instead, they interposed. They committed an act of interposition and did not kill the male Hebrew children. Instead, made sure that they were born alive. We see interposition throughout scripture. I’ll give you many examples.

Sam Rohrer: Matt, we’re going to ask for more examples in one of the other segments. Hold those for the moment because I want you to share, both biblical and some historical examples in a specific application. Hold that for a minute. Gary, you have a question here for Matt?

Gary Dull: Yes. I do, Matt. Glad to have you with us again today. Our program here is called, Stand in the Gap Today. Maybe we should reorder our title and call it, The Interpose, Interpose Today, or something like that. I appreciate you drawing that comparison. Anyway, let’s define one other term and that comes from Romans 13, as well as, 1 Peter 2:13, where we find it says this, and I quote, “Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of the evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.” That’s 1 Peter 2:13. The key word there as we are studying it today is the word, submit. Many people believe that the word, submit, just means, to obey. Now, indeed, that’s a part of it, but how would you define that term in light of the context that we are dealing with it today?

Matthew Trewhella…: Yeah, well, it’s important to know first that, both Paul and Peter don’t use the Greek word for straight-up obey. They both use the Greek word that means, submit, or to subordinate. It’s a Greek military term. Meaning, to arrange. In other words, the civil authorities have been given their proper role and function, but that doesn’t mean that the Christian is always to obey. Both, Peter and Paul, who were arrested by civil authorities understood that to be so. So, they used this softer term, submit, because they know there’s times where you don’t obey. Because, the function of the civil authority is to reward those who do good. Punish those who do evil. But, when they pervert their God-given role and begin to punish those who do good and reward those who do evil, the duty of the Christian is to obey God rather than man. I think, it’s really important for people to understood too, [inaudible 00:06:50] Peter there when it talks about submitting to every ordinance. The word translated ordinance in some translations. Hearing the word of God. It’s translated ordinance. It isn’t talking

about every statute or law of men. It’s important to understand this old English word meant every realm or every institution of men as the verse goes on to say, whether to the king as supreme or to the governors.

So, we submit in the sense that we obey them and all that is proper and right. But when they go against God’s law or word or they exceed the limitations of their God-given office as civil magistrates, we will not obey in those situations. So, they used the term, submit, because we still submit to them. We have to be willing to take upon ourselves the consequence that they dish out because of our fealty to Christ.

Sam Rohrer: Ladies and gentlemen, I hope you catch that as we go into its ranked authority. The understanding of authority. We’ll get into it in the next segment a little bit more. It’s very, very critical in understanding what we mean by submit and obey God rather than man, which we’re familiar with that term or we’ll build that out as we walk further into the program.

Our theme today is, Drawing the Line for Truth: Biblical Interposition and the Culture. I’m Sam Rohrer. Accompanied by Dr. Gary Dull and our special guest, Pastor Matt Trewhella.


If you’re just joining us today on the program, our theme is this, Drawing the Line for Truth: Biblical Interposition and the Culture. Are you wondering how far you are going to be pushed as a pastor and your church? People in the pew? Families? Moms and dads? Doesn’t it feel like we’re being pushed? We are being pushed. You ought to feel like you’re being pushed because the civil authorities are pushing every fence, every boundary, every constitutional boundary, every moral boundary. The question is, how far do we go? Where do we stop? What do we do? That’s what we’re dealing with here today.

Now, in the Book of Ezekiel, and our special guest, Matt Trewhella, referred to this passage already, verses 23 to 31 of chapter 22. It’s the verse, it’s the passage from which we get the name for this program, Stand in the Gap. God spoke to the prophet Ezekiel. I encourage you to go back and read that chapter. Actually, the previous couple of chapters to that, because they all fit together. But after God had completed an evaluation of the Nation of Israel, and again, all of us are going to be evaluated by God. Right? We’re all going to give an account to Him so let’s keep that in mind. He evaluates nations, too. He evaluated Israel, and God identified their sins. He identified it in the chapters before. Idolatry, by worshiping other gods. He identified conspiracy, bribery and corruption by plotting together how to evade or reinterpret God’s moral truth and the commands of God. He accused them of the sin of murder. They were shedding innocent blood and killing their infants. Injustice was another one, by not enforcing the defending of innocent people or widows. Theft, they were guilty

of, by robbing the people of the truth-stealing property through unjust taxation and other means.

God also named the participants: the Prophets, the Priests, the Princes, and the People. Prophets: In jurisdictional terms I’m going to say, they were the lawmakers-those in the Legislative branch of civil government. The Priests: , they’re the protectors of the law, the Judicial branch. Then, there are the Princes. These were the enforcers of the law. Our modern day Executive branch. Then, there were the People. All of them, together, had found a way to use each other to get, selfishly for themselves, something at the expense of others. At the end of the day, it was at the expense of God’s truth and mercy, which they were trying to run from and/or redefine.

Then, God said, this was the end of their evaluation, “Because you will not do what I commanded, I will be forced to do it.” That was to enact justice. That’s what the civil authorities were supposed to have done. They didn’t. He said, “I’m going to have to do that, but before I do, I want to give you one last chance to see if any of you in your various positions, prophets, priest, princes, people will interpose for me and stand in the gap before Me for the land that I should not destroy it in judgment.” God, found no one. Amazing!

My question to all of you listening right now, can he find anyone now? How about you? Matt, we’ve defined interposition. Standing in the gap, essentially. I just gave the justification for interposition as God’s defined plan and expectation for all people. Either, as citizens, or people in positions of authority. That’s what that passage was all about. We just passed Purim and the story of Esther is an example. A prime of example of interposition. I’d like for you to share now some examples… We’re going to break each one of these down a little bit here right now. Share your thoughts further as to other practical reasons why, staying on this emphasis right now. Not the who, but the why. Why interposition, though always necessary, is perhaps so necessary today, right now in 2021?

Matthew Trewhella…: It’s because we have lawlessness in the land. The magistrates have been making evil. Establishing evil through law and court opinion and policy. It is the reason why interposition is so important and necessary. This gets to the consequence of the indifference of pulpits over the last several decades, Sam, of addressing and preaching about civil government matters from the word of God. This is massively important, that the pulpits begin to address civil government matters from the word of God from their pulpits. We have the situation now where the civil authorities are declaring evil to be good. It’s important that people, both as individuals and the lesser magistrates regarding their office, obey God rather than man. That they check the evil of the superior authority. Some people think that, “Oh, you just obey when evil is done,” because we have to obey, period. That is simply not true. In fact, if you do obey, you’re aiding and abetting the tyrants and you’re joining in their rebellion against God.

Some people say, you’re acting like an anarchist if you don’t obey the superior authority and you’re a lesser magistrate. Or, as an individual, you don’t obey, you’re acting as anarchist. No. The superior authorities actually are the one acting as the anarchist. They’re the ones that gone against true law. Whether, constitutionally or regarding the law of God itself. Therefore, those who resist, those who obey God rather than man, they are restoring order. They are not playing the anarchist. They are restoring order and the culture in our nation.

Gary Dull: Matt, again, we appreciate having you with us. Folks, if you do not have this book entitled, The Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrates, I would encourage you to get it. You need to get it. You need to read it. You need to digest it as it relates to what we are facing in our society today. Matt, last August, we, as the Pennsylvania Pastors’ Network here in Pennsylvania, put together a letter that we addressed to our state general assembly, actually, urging them to stand in the gap against the unlawful actions being taken by our governor, Governor Wolf, under the jurisdiction, the COVID virus. We actually called it, Restoring the Law. By the way, we have a website now entitled, Matt, I would encourage you to go look at it if you’ve not yet done so. Folks listening, please go to that site,, and take a look at it.

In line with what Sam asked in his question, we realized that interposition truly is God’s key for restoring law. We know that. We understand that. We understand that interposition is very much a key. If you could please, elaborate upon that just a little bit more, but I want to drive down to one other point. That is, why is it very significant in the day and age in which we live for the pulpit to be strong on this and for the people in the pew to follow through with it, as well?

Matthew Trewhel…: Yeah, absolutely important for the pulpits to be strong on this because we have lawlessness in the land. The magistrates are making the foundation of evil through law. They must be resisted, both by the individual and by the lesser magistrate, choose the good thing about the doctrine of lesser magistrate. [inaudible 00:16:27] that now we have to wait for more years for the next president and the next supreme court appointees, and on and on. That is not true. They can teach this doctrine to their state officials. They can teach this doctrine to their county officials and their local officials. Their duty in the side of Christ for interposition to stop the evil. You have to understand that the superior authority, when they act tyrannically, always count on the lesser authorities to get their evil down in the fabric of society. The longer you allow the evil to fester in society, the harder it is to root it out. People accommodate themselves to evil. The interposition of the lesser magistrate reminds the superior authority that their power has limits. It checks their evil immediately so that order is restored to the land often bloodlessly. That’s the importance.

These tyrants are looking for the obedience of their lesser magistrates. They count on that blind compliance to get their evil down in the fabric of society. When the lesser magistrates stand against it, that’s when the superior tyrant

authority knows he has a problem on his hands. This doctrine is massively important, the doctrine of interposition, even at a personal level. We have little drop cards at our website,, that we make available regarding masking. It simply says on one side the definition of The Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrates. The other side, it simply says, “Refusing to wear a mask, reminds the state that their authority has limits.” It’s extremely important to understand God has given civil government a role, a function, and he’s given it limits. When they make law contrary to His law or word to obey God rather man, and when they exceed their God-given limits or act outside their constitutional limits as we live here in America, we have a duty to obey God rather than man. We have a duty, also, to uphold the constitution rather than the decrees of some lawless magistrate.

Sam Rohrer: Matt, only about 45 seconds left but you’re talking to people across the county right now. Where are you finding the greatest interest in wanting instruction in these areas? Is it just people in the pew, or is it coming from people in office or the pulpit? Where is it coming from?

Matthew Trewhel…: It’s really the people and this is massive, Sam. Because of my book, I hear from people across the country. This is happening at a county level. People are seeing the importance of county government. The people are seeing it. There’s no central power coordinating this. It is like, God is on people’s hearts, and they’re involved in county government. They’ve seen the lawlessness of the federal government. They see it being unleashed now in unbelievably wicked fashion. They’ve also seen that their state legislatures have not checked these lawless governors so they see the importance of county government. County government is massively important. [crosstalk 00:19:37]

Sam Rohrer: Ladies and gentlemen, we’re going to stop there, Matt. We’re going to talk about a little bit of that involvement, local governments and others in the last segment, and some of the solution phases. I want to encourage all of you who are in any position of authority, you hold a vital role. You standing for truth has an enormous impact. When we come back, we’ll continue in our discussion, and we’ll talk about the describing. We’ll give some examples, historically and biblically of those who interposed.


We’re spending time today on probably one of the most important questions that I get ask in dealing with people all across the country from being in office in a pulpit to regular people just running their homes and trying to provide a living for their families. That it this, where do I draw the line? Where do I say, enough is enough in regard to government telling me I can’t go here. I can’t do this. I have to wear this. Or, I can’t assemble over here unless I can make sure there’s not more than 15% people or whatever. You know what I’m talking about. This is where people are. The question is, does the Bible speak to this issue? Well, the Bible speaks to every issue of life. The answer is, yes it absolutely does.

Well, then, why aren’t we going there more often for our answers? That is, there is no excuse for not doing that.

We’re trying to, on the program today, give some practical instruction on this question that everybody listening to me right now, has. That’s, where do we draw the line for truth? The issue is biblical interposition called, standing in the gap. Scripture talks a lot about it. Our special guest today is Pastor Matthew Trewhella. He’s put together a book called, The Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrates. He’s a pastor of Mercy Seat Christian Church in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Been with us before on this program. Become a good friend. He’s very much involved in this issue. He’s a website, You can get information there about the book and a whole lot more.

Now, the concept of interposition, as we’ve already referred, has everything to do with recognizing God as ultimate authority. God as Author of all truth. God as the Creator of all. God as the giver of all human rights. God as the Designer of the system we call, society, which, important to understand, is comprised of four units of authority-another word for government. One, is the individual. Then, there’s the family. Then, there’s the church. Then, there’s civil government. The truth of interposition revolves around the principle of accountability. That each of these I mentioned, individual, family, church, civil government, are all ranked. They’re ranked in order. Like, in military fashion. If you’ve been in the military, you know exactly what I’m talking about. You’ve got the generals and then you have the line down beneath them. All of them are ranked under authority. Each of them in this defined line of authority with each other, they’re responsible, each of them to God Himself first. Then, a duty to each other, to the other authorities, to both perform their duty as God’s laid out but also to hold the others accountable to make sure they stay within their God-designed boundaries and to observe their duties to God.

Everybody’s accountable to each other. We all are accountable to God and He’s given the plan in scripture. When we follow that, then everything works out and into that then, keeping others in line is really what interposition is all about.

Matt, in this segment, I’d like for you to describe interposition with a practical illustration. We have to go quick to try to get it in here but I’d like to take each one of these. Give me, first of all if you can, a biblical example and a historical example of an individual in this first group of authorities, the first entity, of an individual citizen interposing on behalf of themselves and other individuals. Go, first.

Matthew Trewhel…: Sure. By the way, what you said there about authority is so important and you said it very well. Thank you for that. A biblical example would be Daniel. He understood, God is the ultimate authority. When he saw this law of the king that he could not pray to the Lord, he prayed anyway. Of course, we know the rest of the story from there. It benefited the whole realm. He’s interposition

benefited the whole realm, as you know when you follow the story through. Daniel from the Bible, act of interposition. Historically, here’s a great one, Frederick the Wise. He interposed for Martin Luther. He was supposed to arrest him. Turn him over so Luther could be put to death. Instead, Frederick the Wise fanned Luther’s abduction. Hid him in the Wartburg Castle. He translated the New Testament to the German, giving the German people their first cohesive language, as they had many dialects prior to that.

By the way, today, March 4th, 500 years ago today, 1521, was the day Martin Luther got the word that he was to go to Worms to be tried for his teachings. So, 500 years ago today, that whole interposition of Frederick the Wise, it was directly under Charles the Fifth, took place. There is a great example in history of an individual citizen acting on behalf of someone else.

Gary Dull: Thank you for bringing that up, Matt. We appreciate that. Folks, I just want to say, you need to go to the website, One of the articles there is, The Laws of a Nation Should Mirror the Law and Justice of God. You need to read that. It’s an excellent article at

Matt, continuing in this segment, if you could please give a biblical and historical example of a father or family interposing on behalf of their family and other families for truth.

Matthew Trewhel…: Sure, absolutely. Well, you could take Joseph interposing on behalf of Mary and the baby Jesus going off to another country. That was an act of interposition in order to prevent harm from coming to Christ as a little baby. Abraham, remember what happened with his family. They were taken captive. He assembled a group of men. They were armed. They went and interposed on behalf of their families so that they would be freed from those who had kidnapped them. A good historical example would be like Ladysmith, South Africa, 100 years ago in the Boer War. The British attacked. The Dutch men of the area assembled, as fathers, and defended their Town of Ladysmith. If you know anything about military history, it was a remarkable defense that they made. They should’ve been overthrown in [inaudible 00:27:18]. They held the town for months. These are acts of interposition regarding family.

Sam Rohrer: Let’s move on. Matt, that’s excellent. Great. I’m thinking people are listening and they’re saying, “Good, another example. Another example.” That’s what I’m wanting to help, all of us understand, the world is full of examples. The Bible is full of examples of this principle. You may not have heard about it before, but that’s not God’s fault. It’s told through scripture. Now, how about the church? How about a church leader, perhaps who stood in that capacity, Matt? Both, biblically and historically?

Matthew Trewhel…: Well, there’s so many examples, when it comes to that, of interposition by churchmen on behalf of other people, in behalf of the church itself. I’d like to point, just to the fact, at what happened with James Coates up in Canada. You

talk about an unbelievable example of interposition. The stand he has taken, Sam, is so incredibly important, because what he did has brought it to the fore. It’s on everyone’s mind. What should we do? As you know most churchmen here in America have just blindly obeyed the civil authorities rather than check their actions. Went along with everything. Even though, it impugns God’s created order regarding work, all this COVID nonsense. I even know it aids and abets a lie, complete violation of 9th commandment, “Thou shalt not bear false witness.” Everything about the COVID response has been built on a mountain of lies. Even though, it goes against God’s law regarding quarantine where you quarantine the sick, not the whole of society. Whereas, they’ve tried to completely reverse that in order to bring their tyranny on people.

Here, James Coates stands in interposition. He’s in jail now. If you read his writings, the writing of his wife, what a Godly woman. She is also to take a stand. It’s because they learned this matter of interposition that you’re talking about, that is why he took the stand he took. In fact, they had read the book that I wrote just several weeks ago and came to understand these things and then actually applied them. Most people as you know, Sam, love theory but they hate application. Here’s a man who loves Christ. Because he’s willing to hazard his own life for the faith, it’s had huge implications. Not only in the churchmen up in Canada, but also upon churchmen across America and Christians in both lands at large. Thinking about these questions and what their duty is in the side of Christ regarding the evil that’s being unleashed across the land by the magistrates.

Sam Rohrer: Matt, I could ask you to go to those in the civil government, and I think, you could do the same thing. Those in civil government have many times, ladies and gentlemen, used their position, as Matt was talking about. You could be a school board member standing and opposing some implementation of some transgender laws that would attempt for instance to redefine God’s moral law. What are you going to do about that? Just go along? Or, you raise your voice and say, no. There’s a higher law. Legislatures, if you’re listening. I used to be in the legislature. Legislatures have opportunities, ladies and gentlemen, to stand in the gap and oppose unlawful governors or unlawful presidents. Many of them don’t understand this principle. They need to, because when it’s understood, it makes an amazing impact. Why is it? Well, it’s God’s model. That is why. It’s the way God made the system of authority. The more we work with God’s plan, the more that God can bless. When we work against His plan, then, obviously, you’ve got the result of Ezekiel where God says, “Nobody out there willing to do what I said, so therefore, the consequences are coming.”

Are you willing to do what God says by faith? Identify the truth. Stand in the gap for truth. If you do, God will bless you and others as well. When we come back in just a moment, we’re going to conclude the program and we’ll talk about interposition. We’re going to talk about how to do it. How you can actually do some really practical thing.


Drawing the Line for Truth: Biblical Interposition. Meaning, simply, standing in the gap, which this program is named. Standing in the gap for truth. Biblical interposition and the culture, because anytime anybody, anyone, you, no matter what your position, stand for what God says to be true. You make an impact and that’s God’s plan. Now, in the program today, we’ve identified the need in Modern America for active and broad engagement in interposition as evidenced by our nation being increasingly lawless. We see that. Or, unjust and immoral. We see that. That in strikingly parallel fashion to Israel in the days of Ezekiel. It’s an amazing similarity and we saw what God said. We know from God’s perspective, Ezekiel 22, if not other places as well, how interposition is desired by God. He says, “Is there anyone willing to stand in that gap for truth interpose?” It’s necessary to maintain a devotion to God. If you’re not willing to stand for truth, you’re not really devoted to God. Right? It’s also the critical in the concept of accountability to God. Because if we’re not accountable to God for ourselves, we won’t be for anyone else and therein, God’s plan is not defended or lifted up.

Interposition is also a demonstration of an obedience to God. Now, so far, we’ve identified the what, the who, the why, and a little bit of the how. Now, in this final segment, I want to conclude with a further focus on the when and the how. Matt, so let’s go here first. In the balance of this [inaudible 00:33:47] of the program, let’s see if we can get this concluded. Before we identify a few practical how, how to interpose thoughts, I want to ask you this question. That’s the when. When should I stand up? When should I say, no? When should I draw a line?

The reason I ask this is this, because too many people with whom I have talked have taken the position of saying, “Well, frankly, as long as the Bible doesn’t directly say, thou shalt not,” and that could be whatever, “Thou shalt listen to the governor for example when he says only 15% of your people can be there. Well, at least, he’s not saying 0% so, I guess we’re all right and need to obey the 15% ” they would say or whatever. As long as the Bible doesn’t say, thou shalt not directly, they believe that there’s no option but to obey everything and just be quiet and endure.

Now, the other question, often is this, you’ve got to be careful which hill you choose to die on. Is this where you want to die? Most come to the conclusion, no, this one isn’t it. But then, I ask that question and the result is that, whether legislatively or culturally or within families, under that mentality, we convince ourselves to give up moral ground, constitutional ground, or biblical ground an inch or a foot at a time until, lo and behold, we find out, wow! We’ve given away the entire hill, and there’s no hill left to defend. What are your thoughts about the when, Matt?

Matthew Trewhel…: Hopefully, if someone hasn’t found the hill to die on yet, then I don’t know when they will find a hill to die on regarding the lawlessness is so massive. Yeah, you’re exactly right. When they make law, which clearly does contradict the law or word of God, like, “You shall not murder,” and they want us to murder. That type of thing. We have a duty to obey God rather than man, but we also have to understand that, we have to apply the principles of scripture at times also regarding what the magistrates say. Like all these stuff about COVID. Principles have to be applied. When we look at the word of God, again, we see it violates God’s created order regarding work. They’re saying, you’re essential and you can’t work. You have the lying. You’re aiding and abetting a lie. When you wear the mask, for example, because you’re saying, yeah, all this COVID response fiction is actually true when it’s been built on a mountain of lies. The quarantine law, of course, being violated. Not forsaking the assembling of ourself being violated when you take those into consideration, you have to come to a conclusion. This too is a time when we must obey God rather than man as Pastor Coates up in Canada has done.

The magistrates, themselves, understand this too. For example, Newton County, Missouri, just two weeks ago passed an ordinance, because they hear the federal government talking about gun registration, gun confiscation coming from the democrats. They’re at DC and Biden and company, they passed this ordinance declaring any law made by the federal government to infringe upon their citizens within their county, Second Amendment Rights would be no void, no authority in their county. Secondly, they instruct in their ordinance that their sheriff is to arrest any federal officials who’d come in to try to uphold that law, that federal law. Thirdly, it removes any county officials who act in compliance with the federal authorities that may come into their county. This is interposition of the lesser magistrate.

This is massively important for our day again you have to stop the evil now. If you don’t stop the evil that’s coming, look at the equality act, if you do not see interposition by county and state governments against that, all that evil that is unleashed in this federal legislation will filter its way down into the fabric of society through the lesser magistrates. Through state governments. Through county governments, local governments. When actually the duty of county, state, and local officials is interposition. To stand against what the federal government has done and stop the evil from being [inaudible 00:38:22] upon their citizens.

Sam Rohrer: Matt, that’s excellent. I’m going to go to Gary and have him pray for us in just a moment, but you’ve mentioned one thing here that I just want to emphasize. Take just a little bit and talk about it. You’ve talked about counties and others around the country that are stepping up. A practical way for people, I’m going to say, I had the attorney on this program on the 25th of February representing James Coates. I asked him on the air, “What should people do as a way of drawing the line?” He said, “Just learn to say, no.” Now, that was very simple. Just say, no, to those things, which are not constitutional and not

biblical. Ladies and gentlemen, that requires you understand what is constitutional and what is biblical. It puts a burden on us to search out the truth, constitutionally, biblically, and then, act upon it.

Actually, Matt, I’m not going to go back to you right now. Your website,, is where people can go to find the book, The Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrates. Thank you for the work that you are doing and all of this is so critical for where we are.

Gary, we’re about out of time, but I want to go to you. Any final words? And then, to close this program in prayer. Pray that God will take this and equip people who are listening across the country to know what to do.

Gary Dull: Yeah, Sam. It’s interesting. We are discussing this today because just two days ago, I’ve met with one of the leaders of our county, Blair County, Pennsylvania, on this very subject. People are asking the questions about what do we do in the face of tyranny? As Christians, we need to give the answer. It’s true, civil law must mirror God’s law. When it does not, we, as Christians, need to stand.

Father, in light of that, we just ask and pray here today that You will give us all as biblicists the wisdom and the strength to stand for truth. I pray, Lord, that everyone under the sound of our voices today will search the scriptures always for truth. To order their lives according to the biblical worldview so that they may be able to recognize and understand when truth is being violated in government and other entities, as well. That we might be able to properly stand firm for truth in this concept of interposition. Lord, I thank you for Matt and pray that you’ll continue to bless him and use him for Your glory in his ministry, which in Jesus’ name, I pray. Amen.

Sam Rohrer: Amen. Thank you, Gary. Thank you, Pastor Matt Trewhella. We pray that God does, as Gary said, undergirds you, and ladies and gentlemen, that you take this truth today. Take this program. You could find it on, or on our app, your smart phone. Put in the phrase, Stand in the Gap. Take this and then forward this on to friends. People need to hear what we went over today. It is truth that’s not being talked about. It’s truth that’s powerful when it’s implemented.