Why The Church is Absent During the Tribulation: A Biblical Apologetic
June 5, 2024
Host: Hon. Sam Rohrer
Guest: Dr. Carl Broggi
Note: This transcript is taken from a Stand in the Gap Today program originally aired on June 5, 2024. To listen to the podcast, click HERE.
Disclaimer: While reasonable efforts have been made to provide an accurate transcription, the following is a representation of a mechanical transcription and as such, may not be a word for word transcript. Please listen to the audio version for any questions concerning this dialogue.
Sam Rohrer: Hello and welcome to this Wednesday edition of Stand In the Gap Today, and it’s also our bimonthly focus on Israel prophecy and the Middle East. Today my returning guest is Dr. Carl Broggi, senior pastor of Community Bible Church in Beaufort, South Carolina, and a host of his own radio program entitled Search the Scriptures, which you can find if you would have interest in search the scriptures.org. And also I just want to thank Isaac Crockett for filling in for me on Monday. I was gone for a couple of days with some of my family for a few days of vacation and it’s good to be back, but I’m glad that capable team members are able to fill in and do such a good job. So if you’re listening, Isaac, thank you. Alright, well for today’s focus as Bible believing Christians, and I’m going to put that alert Bible believing Christians, we can increasingly considering we should the unfolding biblically prophesied events in the Middle East concerning Israel.
Sam Rohrer: We do that regularly and that was even touched on a little bit on Monday. But you know what, we can also witness the alignment of prophetically identified enemy nations around Israel. The biblically prophesied rise of the Antichrist global government all set within the midst of biblically prophesied rampant deception and technological advancement and wars and rumors of wars. Then when we consider the parallel rise of worldwide immorality and lawlessness, our minds should be further drawn to the next major events of the biblically prophesied end times chronology. That major Prophetical portion of time is of course we know the hastening onset that quickly approaching time, that seven year we call tribulation period, which then is followed by the second coming of Christ. And then we know the thousand year millennial kingdom. We’ve covered all of those things in detail in the past many times, but into this larger picture are two major biblical players we also know, both referred to as being the chosen of God.
Sam Rohrer: They are both chosen, one of course the nation of Israel, Jews as a people, the city of Jerusalem as a city. The other is the church that’s the body of followers of Jesus Christ birthed starting at Pentecost and the ascension of Christ in which Jesus said that he would continue to build. He said, I’ll build my church. Obviously that continues to this very day, but for how long does Jesus build his church and is there an ending to that building process? When does Jesus say he will switch his earthly focus and the focus of what we see around us from the church to Israel and move to the time of tribulation and to his second coming and setting up his earthly kingdom? A few additional logical questions include these, can the church be present here on earth during the tribulation? If not, why not? And where will the church be during the seven year tribulation period? And if you’re a believer, where will we be? What will we be doing and should we know and should we care? Well today, Dr. Carl Broggi and I’m going to engage these series of questions and more the Lord willing, it’ll be edifying and encouraging. So stay tuned. The title I’ve chosen for today is this, why the Church Is Absent During the Tribulation, a Biblical apologetic. And with that, Dr. Carl Broggi, thanks for being back.
Carl Broggi: Great to be here again, Sam, and what an important topic we’re going to address today.
Sam Rohrer: Well it is, and I know you’re going to be dealing with some things like this in your church. You deal with a whole range of wonderful series of sermons and you’re going to be dealing with this. I think it’s a great thing for us to look at here. Not everybody agrees with the timeline even though they call themselves Christians, but we’re going to lay these things out today. But to get us going here right now, would you share an overview of what we’ve referred to as the tribulation period, the different references given to it in scripture as far as how it’s described and lay that out. So that’s our basis to build our thinking around. So what do we know?
Carl Broggi: Well, one of the central passages that deal with the coming great tribulation period is found in Daniel nine. It’s found throughout the Old Testament, but in Daniel nine there’s this 78 weeks prophecy. Daniel had been in Babylon for nearly 70 years. He was reading the prophet Jeremiah knew the 70 years were coming to an end. He literally interpreted prophecy, so he seeks the Lord in prayer and fastening the angel. Gabriel comes of course, they’re there for 70 years. It’s not a number. God pulls out of the sky For 490 years they had violated the Sabbath year where every seven years they gave the land rest. So for 70 years God’s going to have his will performed and Daniel maybe thought, well, if we pray and repent the kingdom that he had had a vision as young man about is going to come. But God then looks 490 years into the future and he prophesies the coming of the Messiah, not immediately but way out in advance and gives actually a mathematical prophecy.
Carl Broggi: And the prophecy is called 70 sevens in Jewish timekeeping. They not only have a week of days, but they have a week of years. And there’s many illustrations in the Old Testament. So he’s speaking about 490 years with a gap in between. And there are many prophecies in scripture that are gapped where the whole range of the Messiah’s rule is given. A baby will be born great. That’s one aspect. The government will rest on his shoulders. That’s a future aspect. So Daniel is told that Messiah is going to come and then in the 70th week, the final seven years, week of years, there’s going to be a time of tribulation. And it’s going to start with a man known as the antichrist who’s going to make a covenant with Israel. Now it’s called by many names in the Old Testament, the time of Jacob’s troubles how Jeremiah 30 refers to it.
Carl Broggi: The day of the Lord often is used to describe the negative side of this coming day. There’s a positive side to it, but a dark time. Isaiah says That day is awful. It’s the destruction of the Almighty Zephaniah one describes it. Likewise, Daniel, in this prophecy, Daniel 12, he says, it’s a time of distress that has not happened since the beginning of nations. You come into the New Testament, Jesus uses almost word for word Daniel 12 in verse one. It’ll be a time of great tribulation that has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now. Revelation seven looks at those who have come out of the great tribulation. Revelation three calls at the hour of testing that will come upon the whole world is called the Great Day of wrath. So it’s an awful time. It starts after the rapture of the church. How soon after, we don’t know precisely, but after the church is removed, there’s apparently a short period of time, weeks stays, months when the antichrist will come on the earth, he’ll sign a covenant with Israel and the 70 week prophecy will begin ticking. It’s seven years long. It will end with the literal visible second coming of Christ from heaven to earth.
Carl Broggi: So that’s the broad range
Sam Rohrer: Of it. That is great. Dr. Carl Broey, I didn’t know if you were going to be able to get that all in or not, but ladies and gentlemen, their transcripts of these programs are on the website with about 24 hours. You can go back and pick it up and go back and look more carefully at the kind of information just laid out. I know there was far too much to write down. Stay. When we come back, we’re going to talk about the church now, church being raptured. Okay, now where will they be? What will they be doing and more we’ll deal with in the next segment? Well, have you ever wondered about the church? If you’re listening to me now and you are a professing believer in Jesus Christ, well if you are in a true believer, then you are a part of the church.
Sam Rohrer: Alright, we wonder about the church. Where are we going to be one day when we die, when the rapture occurs? We know that that’s going to happen sometime. Not every believer agrees on the timing of that. Now, I’m quite certain from what scripture says, and so is my guest today, Dr. Carl Brogue, senior pastor of Community Bible Church. We’re trying to walk through that and just talk about some issues today about the church and the timing and where we’re going to be and what we’re going to do. And I think a lot of questions that I’ve heard from many. So we’re dealing with that today. Our theme is this, why the church is Absent from the Tribulation. So we started there with the tribulation in the last segment, what it is, what we know about it, what begins it, what ends it. But we’re going to move now into the church, Carl, from the account of Daniel.
Sam Rohrer: I’m actually looking at Daniel chapter nine right now. It’s a great chapter. This passage you just cited, it talks about Daniel saying, well, I was speaking in prayer. Even the man, Gabriel, the angel came to him and delivered to him the references here to these weeks, these 490 years and then this 70th week that you’re referring to as tribulation. Now within that Carl, I don’t see any reference to the church or the rapture, both of which you mentioned in the last segment. First of all, why is that briefly, but then if you don’t mind give the background for the church such as for instance, when the first reference to the church occurs in scripture and its purpose and why in simple terms put ’em together. It is distinctively different from the purpose for Israel. Can you put those together?
Carl Broggi: Okay, well I have it opened here to Daniel 9 24 as well, and he begins by saying 70 weeks have been decreed for not community bible church or such and such baptist church, but 70 weeks have been decreed for your people in your holy city. And so the prophecy is about the people of Israel. Daniel is a Jew, that’s your people. And the prophecy revolves around the city of Jerusalem, which is the capital of Israel. And so what he is giving here is not a panorama of world history. It has nothing to do with the church. And I suppose to him that shouldn’t surprise us because in the book of Ephesians, Paul refers to the church as a mystery, a muston meaning something that was hidden, not revealed in the Old Testament, but now is being revealed through him. And so this prophecy can’t have anything to do with the church because the church wasn’t even revealed in the 70th week deals with this seven year tribulation as it relates to Israel.
Carl Broggi: So the church in the New Testament, as Jesus describes it was something future. The first mention of course is their accessory Philippi. And Jesus said, I will build my church. You are Peter and upon this rock himself, meaning Jesus, I will build my church in the gates of hell or Hades shall not prevail against it. And so it was still in the future, it hadn’t yet happened. And when you come into the New Testament, the word church, I think it’s like 114 times, if I remember, it’s the word Lac, not always a hundred percent of the time in reference to the literal body of Christ. Sometimes it’s just used of an assembly of people. Like there’s a mob in the Book of Acts that’s called the lac, an assembly, but almost always like a hundred. And sometimes it refers to either a local assembly or to the universal body of Christ.
Carl Broggi: And so again, it was something future doesn’t appear one time in the Old Testament. Now some of our millennial friends will say, well, in the step two agent, the word EIA or church appears. Well, that’s true, that’s the Greek translation of the Old Testament, but it’s simply translating the word assembly or congregation. But the church, the body of Christ is future from Christ’s perspective. And I think you can prove that. In fact, I usually give a kind of a five step proof to my people how we know the church didn’t exist in the Old Testament but began on the day of Pentecost. Number one, Jesus spoke of it, his future in Matthew 1618, in Acts one 15, he tells the disciples that in the future they would be baptized by the Holy Spirit. So they shouldn’t go out and preach. They needed to wait until they were clothed with power from on high.
Carl Broggi: And Acts two, one to five, we find the Holy Spirit given on the day of Pentecost in one Corinthians 12, 12 and 13, Paul says that when that happens you become a member of the body of Christ. And then if you read Ephesians one in Colossians one, the body of Christ and the church is used interchangeably, they’re equated. So when one is baptized with the Holy Spirit, something that didn’t happen in the Old Testament, they became a member of the body of Christ, the church. And so the church begins on the day of Pentecost in terms of why and when the rapture of the church will occur. Well, when I look at the 69 weeks, the first 69, who does it concern? It’s all about Israel. Who does the 70th week concern Israel. And so the church is not here again, it was a mystery. And we read in Revelation four in verse one, John says, after these things I looked and behold a door standing open in heaven. And you see a picture of the elders who are representative of the body of Christ, the number 24 representative number in scripture. They’re worshiping the Lord with their crowns. And then the church is not mentioned again from chapter five through 19, we don’t see the church again until they come back with the Lord Jesus to rule and reign with him.
Sam Rohrer: Okay, that’s fantastic. So let’s go here. Why must the rapture occur?
Carl Broggi: Well, number one, God has not destined his bride for wrath but for obtaining salvation. Jesus promised in Revelation three 10 that he would keep the church. He’s speaking to Philadelphia, but then he says he has ears to hear, let him listen to what he says to all the churches. So it’s not simply a promise to Philadelphia, but every local assembly, all born again believers that we won’t be here for the hour of testing that will come upon the whole world. There’s never been an hour of testing, not even in the great world wars that has come upon the whole world. That’s still a future. And so God’s going to not beat up the bride during the tribulation and then marry her. No, he’s going to bring her to heaven. And when we’re in heaven, we are going to be prepared for the wedding supper of the lamb.
Carl Broggi: The marriage of the lamb takes place in heaven. And one of the great analogies in scripture is that the church is betrothed to Christ right now, just like in a Jewish betrothal, the groom would go and prepare a place for his bride. Jesus has left. He’s prepared a place. He’s going to come back, John 14, one and two and take us to where he is When we’re in heaven, we’ll meet the Lord at what’s called the judgment of the judgment or the judgment seat of Christ. One Corinthians four in verse five says, it takes place in heaven. God evaluates us and he prepares us for the wedding supper of the lamb, which will be a joint banquet of tribulation, saints, Jewish believers, all those resurrected from the Old Testament era and church saints where we will sit down but the marriage has to take place and we come back with these garments that are described in Revelation 19 that are representative of the gifts or rewards that God gives us by his grace. So anyway,
Sam Rohrer: Okay, lemme ask you to build out on that in the remaining minutes here. You’ve mentioned the marriage supper. You’ve talked about a judgment of the just build out just more specifically the rapture occurs, the church, the dead in Christ are raised, the lies are taken up with him when we get there. And then the tribulation period then occurs sometime right after that. What is the church doing actually during that seven years?
Carl Broggi: Yeah, well sometimes as believers we recognize there’s no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus that we’ve passed out of death into life and we assume there’s no accountability, but that certainly is not true. While we are saved from the wrath of God eternally, God still will reward believers for faithfulness. And so some believers live more passionately, more faithfully doing what the Lord commands than others. And God will recognize that at the judgment seat of Christ. Where we Paul includes himself, will give an account of ourselves to the Lord and he’ll test our works. The great thing is is he just asks us to be yielded. And as we’re yielded to the spirit of God, the Spirit of God rewards us, but God has a plan for everyone’s life. We speak of Ephesians 2, 8, 9, we’re saved by grace, not of works none of ourselves so no one can brag.
Carl Broggi: But then two 10, he reminds us that God saved us to walk in the works that he prepared beforehand. And so if I live in dependence upon the Lord, then I will live out the life that he has and in eternity he’ll reward us for it. And so the judgment seat of Christ takes some time just like hell is not the same for everyone who goes, it’s horrible. But yet the scripture speaks that God will judgment according to their deeds. He speaks of three cities that will come under greater wrath. If Sodom and Gomorrah had had the revelation they had, they would’ve repented in sackcloth. So hell is awful for anyone. But somehow in the perfect justice of God, it’s not the same even so in eternity future and in the millennial reign, there will be degrees of reward based on faithfulness and that time of evaluation will be during that seven year period in heaven. And God will describe us as dressed in the righteous, righteous acts of the saints. We get a robe of righteousness by grace, but then as we yield to his grace, as save people, he rewards us for those righteous acts and we’re dressed up for that coming great wedding supper that will take place a little bit later on the earth. So the marriage happens in heaven, the wedding supper happens on the earth. Those are often confused, but they’re clearly separated in scripture.
Sam Rohrer: Alright, fantastic ladies and gentlemen, stay with us in the next segment. We looked at basically the church when it came about, how it came about. It was a mystery in the Old Testament coming to fruition building even as we are now, we’ll disappear, we’ll be with the Lord. These things happen Now we’re going to come back, we’re going to switch over to Israel a little bit more and say, what is the focus of Israel during this seven years and why is it necessary for the church to be totally absent during that time? Well Carl, in the last segment you addressed briefly the purpose for the church. Well actually I want you to build out on that just a little again the purpose. But from the perspective of Jesus Christ, we know he is the bride groom the church. Those true believers are the bride that means a wedding.
Sam Rohrer: He talked about that a little bit. The rapture we know must occur and you said clearly that it must occur prior to the beginning of the 70th week or that seven year tribulation period because actually a number of reasons. But the Lord went away to build us a home. When he is done, he is going to come back for us. That’s the rapture. And he is not intending to take the bride and bloody them during the time of tribulation because the purpose of the tribulation is not to bloody the bribe bribe, it’s for other purposes. So here’s the question, why must the church again just build it out again in case people missed it? Why must the church be absent during the tribulation period? And why must link ’em together Israel be the sole focus during the tribulation?
Carl Broggi: Well, again, the church is God’s remnant right now, his people to shine the good news of forgiveness. And the Jewish people were originally destined to do that. But sadly, as John says, he came to his own but his own received him not. And so as Jesus approaches the final two weeks of his life, you read in Matthew chapter 12 how the leaders basically say, Jesus, you’re not the Messiah. You’re empowered by the devil himself. And so in Matthew 13, Jesus then goes on to describe after they commit or come to the edge of committing blasphemy of the spirit, he describes the kingdom that has not been canceled, but it’s been postponed. And so God now is working through an international community. Again, not revealed in the Old Testament that Paul describes in Ephesians two made up of Jew and Gentile alike of all the nations of the world who are witnessing for Christ.
Carl Broggi: So we’re carried up to heaven. And again, it’s the perfect imagery of a Jewish wedding. The man goes, he prepares a place for his bride, he comes back, receives the bride. And unlike a wedding ceremony in our day that it’s just a few hours, it was a week long and this particular wedding that will be seven years long, then you say, well, that’s a long time. Well, we were betrothed for 1900 and plus years. So I suppose relatively speaking, it’s not all that long. And so John says, let us rejoice and be glad this is Revelation 19 seven and give glory to him for the marriage of the lamb has come. Then he says it was given to her the church to clothe herself and find linen, brighten clean for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. So God rewards us again for faithfulness and what we’ve done, so the church is being prepared for the marriage supper of the land.
Carl Broggi: People say, well, if you’re engaged, that’s the best part. Well actually a bride looks forward to the wedding day, she’s looking forward to the wedding day. And if she wasn’t, she would be an oddball. And sadly today, many Christians are not looking forward to the future wedding in heaven because they’re not taught Bible prophecy. And so I don’t blame them exclusively, but God’s word is here for anyone to read. But Israel on the other hand is not prepared to meet the Lord. And so Hosea reminds us as do all the prophets that oftentimes God uses hardship to bring about repentance. I just flipped over to Hosea five and it says in verse 15, I will go away. The Lord is speaking and return to my place until they acknowledge their guilt and seek my face in their affliction, they will earnestly seek me. That’s the purpose of the great tribulation.
Carl Broggi: The Lord is gone, but he’s coming back and God’s going to use affliction to bring them to repentance. And that’s really the context and the setting of the all of it discourse. In Matthew 23, he’s already made the great entrance into Jerusalem and he reminds the people because of their unbelief that there’s a coming judgment. And so he laments over the city, Jerusalem, Jerusalem who kills the prophets in stones, those who are sent to her, how often I wanted to gather you together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings. Behold your house, a reference to the temple is being left to you desolate. And then he makes this incredible statement for I say to you from now on, you will not see me until you say you who you the Jewish people. And he quotes that great messianic psalm that every Jew recognizes today as Messianic.
Carl Broggi: Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. So Jesus’s second coming for Israel cannot happen until they say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. They’re going to recognize that Jesus came and the name of Yahweh because he is Yahweh the son. And so God is going to use this time. And so what follows Matthew 24? He then describes, they ask, well if the house, the temple is going to be left desolate, how’s this going to unfold? And then he unfolds in that great discourse the next seven years of Daniel’s 70 week prophecy and the tribulation that will come that God will use again to bring the Jews to repentance. So because they were unwilling, not unable, but Matthew 2337 says, because they were unwilling to acknowledge Jesus’s Lord, God is going to lay aside his use of Israel, but he’s going to restore them in the future.
Carl Broggi: And I suppose if Martin Luther understood this, he would’ve said many, many different things about the Jews, but he had a warped view of eschatology. It was basically Roman Catholicism in terms of eschatology. He regathered the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith alone. But he was warped in his perspective, the Jews. And so he said awful things and if he had just read prophecy, he would’ve recognized, Hey, there’s coming a time when they are going to repent. It’s just not yet in my day. It’s during the time of the great tribulation. But because his eschatology was so distorted, he couldn’t put two and two together on that day.
Sam Rohrer: That’s great. We have about four minutes left here, two minutes if you can on this. You mentioned one part for Israel, the focus God is going to afflict them until they come to the point where those who are left at the end of that tribulation period will call out and say Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. But there are going to be judgments on the entire world, most of whom are gentile nations. Could you answer this question? What is the other purpose of the tribulation affliction on Israel to bring them back, but what is the other part of the purpose for the tribulation period?
Carl Broggi: Well, it’s during this time and they will earnestly seek him. They’re going to recognize that this false messiah is indeed just that they will reject him. They will demonstrate that they are in faith by the fact that they will obey God’s command. They’ll flee into a place in the wilderness where God will protect a remnant, otherwise no one would be left. When Jesus came back with that said, God is going to convert so many Jews, 144,000 Jewish men, unmarried single men, the Bible’s real clear are going to be converted. They’re going to preach the gospel to the whole world. And you have a picture of that in Revelation seven where John sees this great multitude. He compares it to the sand of the seashore from every tribe, tongue, and nation. So there’s going to be a huge in gathering of Gentiles across the world through Jewish evangelism during that time.
Carl Broggi: Not to mention there’ll be two specific witnesses. I think there probably will be Elijah and Moses. I wouldn’t start a denomination over it. But nonetheless, there’ll be two witnesses that will also preach the gospel to the world. And even for the first time in human history and angel of God that will go through the world. And so while the church is not here as a restraining influence, the spirit of God will still be at work in the hearts of men and women showing them of their need for repentance. Most people sadly will not repent. I have four fingers and when I look at the sealed judgments, the Bible tells me one fourth of the world will be destroyed. That leaves three fingers. When I come to the trumpet judgments, I learn that one third of the remaining will be destroyed. That leaves me two fingers.
Carl Broggi: So by the time you reach the end of the trumpet judgments, half the world is dead. It’s incredible. And yet during that time, many will call upon Jesus and faith and the means of their testimony will result in execution. They will be beheaded. So Jews are going to come to faith, gentiles from every tribe, tongue and nation. In fact, that’s the context of what Jesus said. This gospel of the kingdom shall go to the whole world and then the end shall come. It’s going to happen. We’re trying to fulfill the great commission, but it’s literally going to happen. Every tribe, tongue and nation is going to be represented because there’ll be believing people within every nation of the world during that time that will call upon Jesus. Certainly there’ll be a minority comparatively speaking to the amount that reject the Lord and follow antichrist, but nonetheless they will be there.
Sam Rohrer: That’s fantastic. And a clarification here, not a clarification, but obviously with the church being gone at the rapture, Jesus ceases to build his church, I will build my church that comes to a stop at the rapture. So what is being built during the tribulation with these people coming to the Lord would be the same as like the Old Testament saints coming to the Lord essentially. Is that correct?
Carl Broggi: That’s exactly right. So the spirit of God worked in the Old Testament because man is hard, is hard, but not on the same level that he works in this age. And yes, he will be bringing Jewish and Gentile people to faith. They’re not members of the church. But as the marriage supper of the lamb will affirm, which happens when Jesus comes back to the earth, there’ll be one people and Jesus tells parables that they’ll come from the east and the west and the north and the south and they’ll sit down with Abraham and all the Old Testament saints. That’s the marriage supper of the lamb because he’ll have one people during that time. There will certainly be a distinction for Israel even during the time of the millennial reign. But God has in the end one group of people made up of Jew and Gentile alike.
Sam Rohrer: Ladies and gentlemen, I hope if you’re been listening from the beginning of the program, that this helps to kind of pull together pieces of the story as we look at the 70th week, the tribulation period, the church’s role, Israel’s role, God’s greater purposes manifesting judgment because he has to against sin. But in his mercy, the great proclamation of the gospel does go out, people are saved. And that brings us back to now what happens at the end of the tribulation period when the Lord comes back. What is the church doing then?
Sam Rohrer: All right, we’re going to go into the final segment here. Now, we’ve kind of tracked the church from the very beginning. We’ve laid down Dr. Carl Brogue has a website@searchthescriptures.org, and I encourage you to go there, lots of information there. He does a lot of q and a on a number of programs that he does as well as sermons that he has done. I think you’d find that very helpful. Matter of fact, a number of you listening now have commented to me how you’ve been so helped by visiting his site and his teaching. So I encourage you to do that and you can do it there@searchscriptures.org. But Carl, as we look at the focus on the church here today, the 70th week of Daniel, you’ve talked about that. You’ve talked about God’s purposes with Israel, the church. We’ve talked about the fact that during that period of time, it’s chastisement for Israel to bring them to the point where they cry out.
Sam Rohrer: Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. That being a trigger point really for the second coming of Christ. Alright, so now we’re at the end of the seven year period. Let’s go into this a little bit. The church we know in scripture will return with Christ. I’d like you to, if you could give some biblical citation for that promise and throw in there when Christ comes back the second coming, he comes back with the church reference that anybody else going to come back with Christ at that time. For instance, tribulation, saints, old Testament saints or is that just a church? And then answer this who and then this. Why does Jesus as king of kings return with us, the church and others? Why doesn’t he just come back by himself?
Carl Broggi: Oh, that’s fantastic. What a great lead in. Well, revelation 19 describes the second coming of Christ. It’s a distinct event obviously from the rapture. The rapture living saints are translated, caught up to meet the Lord in the air. They’re changed in the twinkling of an eye. And those who have died in Christ, their spirit is reconnected to the body were captured, brought into heaven. We will come back with the Lord Jesus as Revelation 1911 to 19 describes He speaks of the armies of God from heaven and we’ll be riding a white horse just like he will. I have a friend, he says, I’ve got my horse named already and there will be tribulations saints as well that will be coming back with them. Daniel 12, one and two indicates that as we come back with the Lord, it is at that time that all the Old Testament saints are going to be raised up.
Carl Broggi: So tribulation, saints who are martyred, they come back on white horses with the church and as Jesus makes his way to the earth, just like at the rapture he brings back with him, those who have fallen asleep, he’ll bring back with him. Departed Old Testament saints reunited their bodies in the ground and many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake these to everlasting life. And so what will happen at the start of that thousand year reign is there’ll be tribulation, saints, old Testament saints and church saints, all in resurrection bodies. There will be people in physical bodies like you and I have today who have survived the tribulation, Jew and Gentile alike, and they’ll be separated out. The judgment of the nations will be determined by how they treated Israel because how they treated Israel will show whether or not they had true faith in the Lord.
Carl Broggi: And so the sheep and the goat judgment and even living Jews will be separated out. Ezekiel 22 indicates those from believing Jews and those from unbelieving Jews. And so they will enter into the kingdom in their natural bodies. We will rule in reign as believers, old Testament saints, tribulation, saints and church saints over those who enter into this coming kingdom in their natural bodies. And so the whole idea of a kingdom is not a New Testament concept. It’s taught throughout the Old Testament. Even on the Mount of Olives, they say, Lord, is it this time you’re going to restore the kingdom? The only thing that’s new is the length of the kingdom in that we don’t learn it’s a thousand years until John tells us in Revelation chapter 20. But we pray his kingdom come, may his will be done on earth as it is in heaven. That’s a future prayer for a literal kingdom that will come.
Sam Rohrer: Alright, well that’s fantastic. So during the millennial kingdom, you have the believing Jews, the believing gentiles who survived, didn’t lose their lives, survived. At the point of the second coming, they will move into the millennial kingdom. They will be fruitful and multiply. They will have children. Children will be born, will likely live a lot longer. But for us, the Old Testament saints, the church, saints, the tribulation, saints, we don’t procreate during that time, but we are there to rule in some capacity with what Christ is doing as physical king out of Jerusalem. Do we have any idea about what we may do that those of us who are ruling, all of us who know the Lord
Carl Broggi: Well, this idea of ruling with Christ, it’s a firm for the tribulation. Saints in Revelation 20 and verse six, blessed is holy is the one who has a part in the first over these. The second death has no power, but there’ll be priests of God and of Christ and we’ll reign with him for a thousand years. Paul tells us if we endure, we will reign with him. Two Timothy two, revelation five, revelation two again speaks of this coming reign. Jesus speaks to the church at Thra Tyra that they will receive authority from my father and they will rule in reign as he rules and reigns with a wr of iron. What will that look like? Well, it appears the world will be divided up. Jesus spoke in one parable to give us a glimpse, Hey, you’ll be over 10 cities. Someone else will be over five cities, another person over one city.
Carl Broggi: Who will we be ruling and reigning over? Well, those who enter in their natural bodies because like us, they can still sin. They will have children and grandchildren. And of course during this period of time, as you mentioned, it will be a protracted period of time if a man lives only to be a hundred. Isaiah said he’s considered cursed and so there’ll be a time of worship in fellowship. Isaiah two speaks of that where, let me just flip there. Here it is. It says now it will come about that in the last days the mountain of the house of the Lord will be established as the chief of the mountains and will be raised above the hills and all the nations will stream to it. So the nations of the world are going to come to Jerusalem to worship. They’re going to learn from a millennial temple.
Carl Broggi: There’s going to be a future temple, a fourth temple that’s never yet been built. And there will be sacrifices only if it’s certain nature that are done, but it will be instructive, not propitiatory Christ once and for all sacrifice dealt with our sin. But just like the Lord’s table looks back, this temple will look back and it will teach the of the world of their need to call upon Christ in faith. And of course, not everyone will because at the end of the thousand years when Satan has been locked up and then loose, he’ll tempt those people who were born during that time who didn’t call upon Jesus’s Lord to go against him. And so during the thousand years Messiah, the Lord will rule with a rod of iron because there’ll be unbelievers who are born during that time. So there’ll be perfect justice and righteousness.
Carl Broggi: Micah teaches, Zechariah teaches, but at the end of that thousand years, some will not have come to faith. I know that seems almost like impossible to people, but it’s no less possible than when he came the first time and he literally physically walked on the earth and not everyone responded. And it will be a reminder really of how hard we are by nature and how desperately we need the grace of God, but God will fulfill all of his promises to Israel. He’s a promise keeping God. He made an unconditional covenant concerning a piece of property. God is in real estate and he’s going to keep his promises to Israel.
Sam Rohrer: Amen. Amen. Dr. Carl Burgie, thank you so much for being with me. Search the scriptures.org for his site, lots of information. And ladies and gentlemen, again, a reminder because we are adding transcripts of all of these programs generally up on the site within 24 hours and you can go back and actually listen again and read through. While you’re doing that, all of these different things that have been said, because I know there’s a wealth of information, you could be sitting in a classroom getting lots of information here. We’ve put it together and hopefully that is of a help to you. Thanks for being with us today. We’re willing to see you back here tomorrow.
Recent Comments