Recalibrating the Meaning of “Love”: What is Love?

Host: Hon. Sam Rohrer

Guest: Dr. Renton Rathbun

Note: This transcript is taken from a Stand in the Gap Today program aired on 4/13/26. To listen to the podcast, click HERE.

Disclaimer: While reasonable efforts have been made to provide an accurate transcription, the following is a representation of a mechanical transcription and as such, may not be a word for word transcript. Please listen to the audio version for any questions concerning the following dialogue.

Sam Rohrer:

Hello and welcome to this Monday edition of Stand in the Gap today, as again, we tackle a lead issue of the day from a biblical worldview and constitutional perspective. Now, today’s our monthly focus, specifically on apologetics, biblical worldview and education with returning guest Dr. Renton Rathbun. He is a speaker and a consultant on biblical worldview instruction for BJU Press. He’s been a college professor as well for over 20 years on both Christian and secular institution and their campuses. And in addition, he teaches and preaches across America regularly, focusing on biblical worldview, apologetics. And just recently, some months ago now, he assumed the pastorate of a church in upstate South Carolina. So when I was thinking about the theme for today, there’s so many areas of big news that we could pursue today, but I’m going to save some of that for what we’re going to talk about on Wednesday, about the things that are happening around the world.

But beyond that, I’m going to jump into a big issue of today and deal with it more so in depth because we’ve dealing with today. We’ve already dealt with this theme a little bit before, and I’ll explain that in just a minute. But in this world, are we not in an increasing conflict in war? The answer is yes, obviously we are. But I’ve chosen not to go that direction of talking about war and strife and lawlessness because I fully recognize that that word keeps us in the area where the media attention wants us, but rather go the opposite direction out of love. And I fully recognize that this word love and the concept behind it is greatly misunderstood and generally redefined to mean whatever person chooses to make it, but that’s not the biblical approach to this word or what it is or why it is.

Now, last month on this very same program focus with Dr. Renton Rathbun, we pursued what I would say would be part one of this two part emphasis, and we made the theme there more so of what love is not. And we defined then that the Bible, there are three types of love, arrows, fleshly love, phileo, brotherly love, agape, godly love. And yet I shared there that according to modern AI as they searched the networks around the world, there are now eight types of love and we’re not going to talk about those, but just to show that the world has its own definition. They disregard the fact that God is love, but we’re going to complete this focus on love today and put it all together. The title I’ve chosen to frame this conversation today is recalibrating the meaning of love, what is love. And with that, Renton, thank you for being with me again on this very, very important topic, which I know that you’ve been dealing with, I believe, within your church.

Renton Rathbun:

Yes, sir. Yeah. Thank you for having me. We’ve been going through Ephesians and it has a lot to say about love. I’ll tell you that.

Sam Rohrer:

Well, it does. And I want to have you share some of that because again, as we went last time, we’ll go further into it here today because in an earlier Stand on a Gap Today program, and if you’re listening to us, you can actually search and go back. But on December 8th of last year, we tackled our first approach, Renton, you did, and we termed it love and the Gen Z problem. And you went at it from a perspective of young people and the fact that we have an entire generation or two that have no idea what love is. Then last month, March 9th, we continued that with calibrating the meaning of love in a love light world, basically what love is not. So today, let’s begin the focus on the true meaning of love by defining what that is and compare contrast with what the world says it is and set up the program for today here now.

Renton Rathbun:

So last time we spoke, we kind of opened up with how do we talk about love. I kind of showed the difference between what love does as opposed to what love is, but I think this is important for us to understand even how to understand love itself. One of the hardest things about defining love is that I have to ask our listeners to stop thinking like a 21st century American. Americans think in terms of concepts and a concept is like a standard that we all look up to. We then try to meet that standard. So for instance, if someone has a standard of what justice is, then they have some kind of standard that they look to, whether it be a particular group or it’s some kind of measurement that they use. So how do we define love? We must define it as the author of reality defines it.

We must define it as the one who created all things, who is the one who brought all things into being. And I’m saying all this because this is important, because what I’m going to say is going to be strange, because we have to understand that God has defined love through his speech in his word. And he did this through the book of one John, where the Holy Spirit tells John what love is. And what we find is that in one John four: eight, he says that love is a person, not a concept. Now, that’s going to be important for us to understand as we go through this. It says that God is love. Now we need to understand, it doesn’t say that love is God. It says that God is love and love, what we find as we read through verse John four, and we’re going to talk about more of this later as we go through these verses, we’re going to find that love just is not a concept that God has to then attain to.

Love is a person. It is God. So to have love is to have the presence of God, the knowledge of God, and to be able to imitate God. So that’s how I think for this segment or for this particular program, we need to define love. We need to define it that love is the presence, knowledge, and imitation of God. Now what’s different about how the world sees love is the world sees love as the acceptance and celebration of the traits that they have agreed upon in culture. So culture agrees upon a certain traits or concepts that they like. And so love is now accepting and celebrating those traits and those concepts that they have decided as a culture, this is what we like. And of course that’s going to change. Sometimes it might be more conservative as you look back in time, it gets more crazy as we get close to where we are today, but it always comes down to how the culture has decided upon a trait or a concept.

And if you accept it and celebrate it, that’s love. And what we find in Christianity is something very different. It’s not a concept, it’s not a trait. It is God and his presence, the knowledge of him, his presence and imitating him, that is what love is going to be because

Sam Rohrer:

Everything

Renton Rathbun:

Else is just what humans have decided. It’s not what God has decided.

Sam Rohrer:

See, Renton, that’s very interesting. We’re going into the break here now, but what you’re saying in the Bible says is God is love, not love is God. God is love, but under the world’s definition, what they’re saying of what it is, you’re saying that ultimately man comes up with his idea and that becomes effectively their God. So for the world, love is their God, but from God’s perspective, he and he alone is love. I’ll put it in a different way there, ladies and gentlemen. We’ll come back. We’re going to now describe love in the next segment. We’re going to illustrate love in the third segment, and then we’re going to demonstrate the power of love in the final sentence. Well, if you’re just joining us today, Dr. Renton Rathbun, he’s the director of the Center for Biblical Worldview. Actually, he’s not there in that capacity anymore, but he is a consultant and a speaker for BJU Press, which is the main focus now.

Plus he’s now moved into the pulpit in a church in South Carolina, but he’s with me today. And if you’re just joining us, we’re on the theme of love. March 9th, about a month ago, we dealt with the concept of love and more precisely in that setting, what it is not. Today, we’re talking about what it is. And in this segment, attempt to describe it, next segment to more so illustrate it. And then in the last segment, we’re going to just sum it up by talking about the power of true love. Now, a bit of history all through human civilization, the human understanding of love has been reflected in a lot of things. We see it in art, sculptures, writings, even architecture, and so much more, because it’s an expression. Love is an expression of what one values. Even this understanding of love though in these things has varied through the generations, and you can almost track cultures and their understanding of love and what they value, all that’s reflected in the things that they tend to leave behind like that.

You can also find it in music and writing and family and government values and laws. And in reality, history would likely present more examples though of what true love is not than what it actually is. And therefore, that’s the challenge for all ages, and particularly believers in Jesus Christ who have come to know the love of God. It’s always a challenge. It’s a challenge for us today in our age. So Renton, in the last segment, you presented a definition of love. You contrasted the world’s definition of love to what the world says it is, and I’ve tried to build on that because we see it expressed all around us, but now I’d like for you to describe what it is. And if you can, work into this description as you present it, the addressing of the question of not just what, but why. I think we’ve got to go there too.

Why is there such a reality as love as we look and try to describe what it is?

Renton Rathbun:

You know, what’s so great about this, talking about love using three separate times of our time together, almost a trilogy of our discussion on love, is these really do build up on themselves. So I encourage your listeners, if this is the first one you’ve heard, that’s great, but listen to the other two as well because they build on each other. Because what I want to describe to you now is so important, and some of it goes back to what we talked about in our previous talks, that God is a God who is one who is an actor, he acts.

He’s not a God that just sits and floats and has a bunch of ideas in his head. Instead, he is a specific person that in who he is, he acts forward from who he is. And so this idea of love, the reason why it’s so hard for us to define it sometimes is because it’s so closely related to what it does. And so, and I think that’s important to understand because what it comes down to, if love is a person, that’s hard for us to understand that. If love is merely, we just define it as, well, it’s God, and he has this disposition. And we talked about that disposition last time where he is devoted, he has a devotion. So in his devotedness, you have the son devoted to the father, the father, devoted to the son, the spirit, devoted to both, both, devoted back to the spirit, and this devotion to each other is that love.

But if that’s just in the, if I can put it this way, in the mind of God without being an activity of God, then it really doesn’t exist unless it’s an activity. There’s no real power unless there’s action. There’s no real existence without its manifestation. And so this is why scripture talks about how love is manifest or made clear to us because we have a God who acts and he acts in relation. And that’s why it’s so important that we believe in a Trinity. We do not believe in a monad God as Islam or Jews that hold to God not being a Trinity because how can he demonstrate any love if it’s just in his head and he’s this monastic person who just sits and thinks of love, but rather we serve a God who manifests his love. And we see this through this devotion he has towards each other in the Trinity.

And so for us to understand love, we need to be united with that person. And so when we see that love is demonstrated to us because we have sinned against God and despised him, and instead of destroying us, he puts his son forward. And that’s what one John four: eight through 11 is talking about who does not know God … I’m sorry, anyone who does not love does not know God because God is love. In this, the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only son into the world so that we might live through him. And then he reemphasizes this and gets more specific. And this is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his son to be a propitiation for our sins. In other words, what we see love do is that it is in a way devoted to the point of sacrifice.

And so we start seeing that this devotion to someone, if we’re going to love someone, first we need the presence of God because without him, we can’t love. And then we see that this sacrifice work becomes something that we imitate in God. And so we have to know him in order to imitate him because that is how love is understood.

So in his devotion to himself, we see that we want to be devoted like that. And this is what it looks like. And so that’s why he says,” Be holy for I am holy. “What is holiness? Devotion. What does holiness require? Love. And so it’s not just a mindless devotion. It is that which is centered around an affection, if I can put it that way, for the other, to the point of sacrifice.

Sam Rohrer:

All right. I think as you’re describing, I’m thinking in terms of relationship, love is relationship. It’s not a static, monastic entity as you described at the beginning. There’s an action involved with it, but we see that action within the Godhead. God, the Father, God, the Son, the devotion, as you laid out, perfect in every regard, and that we cannot know that until we know the love of God through faith in Jesus Christ. All right, now let’s build on that a little bit more, because since the Bible says that in reality, love is a person, God is love. Okay, we’ve stated that many times, and that love is perfectly demonstrated in reality in the truth that God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, faith in Jesus Christ. We’ve talked about that. So here’s this question. What was love like before the fall when sin came into the world?

There was a period of time when Adam and Eve existed before sin. What will love be like after the great white throne judgment when there will be no more sin and death than hell locked away forever? Can we really, in this age, Renton, actually know what true love is like? And obviously within the Godhead, that love has never changed because God never changes, but as it affects humanity, it would be my question. What would you say?

Renton Rathbun:

So you’re right. Since God is who he is, his love is the same now as it was before, as it is now, as will always be, his love is this constant devotion to himself. However, because of sin, that devotion to himself manifested or showed itself by way of sacrifice. So what we see is as things changed from perfection to a sin cursed world, the love didn’t change, the devotion didn’t change, but the manifestation of it changed. So first you have God manifesting his love to his children, Adam and Eve, by way of covenanting with them and saying, “Do not eat of this tree.” And in that warning is grace, but you can have any other tree, and in that is grace. And in the perfection of their obedience, more grace would come because he was demonstrating a devotion to himself that their obedience would give glory to him and praise.

But in the fall, what we have is man saying, “From the root of his heart to the opening of his mouth, I defy you. ” Now, God had every right to destroy all of humanity, maybe even all his creation, and maybe start again. Just like he was talking to Moses on Mount Sinai, “I’ll start again.” But no, he doesn’t. Instead, what he does is he manifests the same devotion, but this time by way of sacrificing, bringing all that punishment, right? Because of who he is, he can’t hold back his punishment, but he brings all that punishment down on his son and we become a manifestation of his devotion to himself as two Timothy 2:13 tells us very clearly.

Sam Rohrer:

What a beautiful description, Renton. Ladies and gentlemen, stay with us. When you come back, we’re going to build on this a little bit more and try to illustrate it a little bit more. Love is a concept that we can state with our mouth. We can say it’s fully demonstrated within the Godhead, but we live in this world around us and sometimes it’s helpful to illustrate a little bit more of what love is and how we live it out. Throughout scripture, we know from scripture that Satan is described there as the great deceiver. He is a liar and the Bible says he is the father of lies. We also know in scripture that God is truth. Jesus Christ is the physical embodiment of truth. The devil is the counterfeit. He’s a deceiver. He’s the anti-truth. He’s the anti-God. He’s the anti-Christ. And he walks all around though, masquerading as an angel of light.

And if today is not a day where anyone with eyes to see cannot come to this conclusion that the days in which we live are representative of exactly what God, the author of truth, has told us, then well, if we can’t see that, we don’t have eyes to see. Now, all that God is, the devil attempts to represent and to counterfeit. Truth is where it starts, and certainly it is also the manifestation in reality of love as we’re describing it, because he deceives in every way possible. So Renton, let’s go here. Now, I know in the last segment you did well attempting to, not attempting, but we tried to kind of put in there, describe love a little bit. And I know that describing something and illustrating something is very similar, but let’s try to further illustrate here. Since God created, and I was thinking of this as an approach to perhaps doing it, because as human beings, we live in a human civilization society, and whereas cultures vary around the world, and we’re not living at the same time that they did before the tower of Babel, that kind of thing.

We all know that people live in their period of time, and they have to deal with what is there at that time. I thought about this, but since God created, and he ranked all authorities, as described in Romans 13, other places, and every level of human society, that construct of human society, those institutions that are within it, I thought might be a way that we could approach this and see how love properly exercised would be seen and be illustrated within each. So as an example, the church is an institution of authority established by Christ himself when he came. So let’s start there. How is true love illustrated within the church? And when that is done, what will that demonstration of love look like? Maybe rephrase it if you want to. We’ll start there and then we’ll go down the list of human authorities, civil government, and we’ll end up with the family.

Renton Rathbun:

So when we look at one John four: eight where it says, God is love and all that sort of thing, what we forget sometimes is the whole impetus of bringing that whole thing up actually came from one John four: seven, which reads, “Beloved, let us love one another for love is from God and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.” And so there’s an argument going on. The argument is, how is it that we in the church are to love each other? And you would think that there’s a million things that we hear today and how to love each other in the church. And usually it comes down to accept people for who they are or just embrace me for who I am and that is what love will look like. And so we change our churches. There is even churches during the COVID times where people were starting to put unisex bathrooms in to make everyone feel welcome and this was what love looked like.

And that whole idea was all the rage. And we described love in the previous segment as a devoted affection for someone else. Now, what happens if you separate the idea of devoted affection from God himself? We can be affectionately devoted to people in very, very sinful ways to the point where you actually celebrate their sin instead of lovingly help them see that it’s sin. You can even lead them down the road of hell because you want to be so polite and accepting and what they would consider loving. And so this is why the presence of God is so important. It’s not just saying that here’s some concepts that are in God. This is saying, first of all, anyone that loves God is born of God. So now you have this strong distinction that real love must begin with a unity with the one who is love, God.

So does that mean to everyone else, if you’re not a Christian, you can’t love? Yeah, that’s what it means. That’s exactly what it means. And you can try and imitate the loyalty side or imitate the devotion side. You can imitate affection. You can imitate all these things, but if you don’t have God, you don’t have love because he is what love is. And so in other words, the only way for us to really love each other is to first see that this manifestation of love by our God, which is demonstrated in verse 10 where it says, “In this is love.” Not that we loved God, but that he first loved us and sent his son to be the propitiation for our sins. And in the last segment, we talked about what that meant. God’s love for us was that he was going to pour down his wrath on his son instead of us and not because we were inexplicably dirty, but because we hated him.

And so that kind of love shows us that we are to … How are we to love each other in the church that way? That’s how we’re to love each other. We are not to wait for someone to be attractive enough for us to love them.

We are not to wait until they love us first and then we love them. We are to sacrifice for them for the sake, not of themselves, but for the sake of the love that the Father showed for us. You see how different that is. It’s not, I am sacrificing for your particular sake, so I will sacrifice what God says for you. You are sacrificing for the sake of the love that the Father showed for us, which makes it completely different kind of understanding of love than what the world would offer.

Sam Rohrer:

So the church made up of true believers, not the false church, but the true church is made up of true believers who then have an ability to truly love, as you said, because they’ve experienced the love of God through faith in Jesus Christ. Okay. And when that’s done, that’s powerful. And we’ll talk more about that next segment, about the power of that. But let’s move to civil government. That’s another institution that God has set up. And in Romans 13, it says that all of those who serve in any position of authority are a deacon effectively by the meaning there or a minister of God. So they’re going to give an account to God for how they do that. What’s it look like? Illustrate what it looks like for civil authority to actually reflect and do that which is God love.

Renton Rathbun:

Yeah. So Romans 13 is clear to us that not only how we are to respond to government, because government is put into its position by God, and those who lead are put into position by God. But we also have to remember that God’s work is done when he puts people in position. This could be for our blessing, but also for our curse, because we were unwise. And so, but what Romans 13 does tell us is that the whole point of government is to demonstrate a picture of God to the people. So they are to protect the people from the terror of people that want to hurt us and they are to promote people that are doing good. They are to be God’s servant for good. First Peter two tells us that the government is to punish those who do evil and praise those who do good.

They are to be a servant of God for good. And so that’s the position of government. So how do you know when the civil authority has ceased to reflect that picture? Well, when it is no longer sacrificing itself for us, when it’s no longer protecting us, when it’s no longer doing those things that a protector is to do for its people, and what you see is this real discouragement, because in an imperfect world, this is what we keep coming across, and this is how people … They hated Biden, and I can see why a lot of people were that way, and then we get this new guy, “Ah, Trump will do it. ” But then we see him failing. And what we see is this constant failure because people are not viewing their position as this, “I am a servant of God.” They are positioning as, “I am a servant of acceptance,” or, “I am a servant of some agenda.” Very few people that we’ve had in that position were people that saw themselves as servants of God.

Sam Rohrer:

Okay. We don’t have much time, but start on it and then we’ll carry it over. The family. Let’s go to the institution of the Family. What a wonderful place to illustrate love, isn’t it?

Renton Rathbun:

Yes. In Ephesians 5:22 forward tells us how our love is to be manifest in our families. The wives are to demonstrate this love by submitting to their husbands as they would to the Lord. Men are to demonstrate this love by sacrificing themselves for their wives, cleansing her by the washing of the water of the word, presenting her to the Lord without spotter wrinkle. Men are to love their wives the way they love their own bodies. And this is a sacrificial work to copy what it was that Christ did for the church. And this copying, this imitating of Christ in the church is the love of the family. All

Sam Rohrer:

Right, ladies and gentlemen, again, we could have gone so much further. We’d like to have two hours, but we don’t. But I hope that you can identify with a number of the things that have been said. Now when we come back, we’re going to wrap up the things that we’ve talked about here today and end up focusing on the power of love. When love as defined by God, God is love, is actually demonstrated. There is great power. Okay. Before we go into the final segment here and summarize this program, I just want to give you a website, worldview.bju.edu, I think. Or Renton, let me ask you, what’s the website that people can go to find your stuff material?

Renton Rathbun:

Oh, the best place would be rentonwrathbun.com.

Sam Rohrer:

Okay. RentonRathbun.com. I gave you an earlier one. This is the one to go to rentanwrathbon.com and you’ll find a lot of material there that he puts out. I encourage you to visit that. Now, as we close today’s program, Renton, we’ve covered a lot of ground. Love we are told is kind and long suffering. It’s not selfish or vain. It’s the furthest thing from pride or arrogance. It’s patient and so much more. We’ve gone through a lot of that. You’ve shared much about love as being a person, God himself. Jesus Christ, the manifestation of this love demonstrated by his sacrificial death on the cross. You’ve made it clear and you’ve illustrated that love put into practice illustrated by the church can only happen really by the church because a person cannot demonstrate love, as you said from Book of Third John there, one John, that we cannot love until we have known the love of God.

So now things begin to put together a little bit, but we live in a world that’s full of deception, counterfeited by the devil on every hand. And we know the whole world lies in deception because of all that. So it affects this concept and reality of love too, completely and always redefined by the world, but it does not alter the power of love. In the last segment, just to share one thing that in my time in office, Renton, I went before the Lord when I first went in off 1992 and said, “Lord, how are you going to measure me? How do you measure those who are in office?” As Christian parents, we were homeschooling our children then. What ultimately is our goal? What do you expect of us as parents? And going to Romans 13, I ran across the verse as I studied out in Romans 13: six.

It says, where it refers to those in office, actually, but literally all positions of authority, because that’s what Paul’s talking about, is that it defines them as God’s ministers, but that’s a different Greek word. It’s not deacon as it is in the other two aspects, servant. It’s actually come to the word a leader in worship. And I came tonight thinking, Renton, that ultimately, every person in authority, parents, pastors, teachers in a classroom, those in government. Ultimately, how are we going to be measured? Well, at the end of the day, I think it’s by do we lead people to the worship of the perfect God, the perfect demonstrator of love. Leader in worship literally means that. So when I step down from the pulpit, what are people left seeing? Me or God? An office, political, speeches made? All right, what do people see? The person? Or did that person lead them to the reverence that there was a higher authority, God and God alone?

Those are my thoughts, but enter into that now, if you don’t mind, and talk about that final words and the power of love, even though we’re in a world that we see increasingly evil things.

Renton Rathbun:

Boy, that’s what you said is so helpful because we have, I believe, as a country gotten so mixed up with our tribes that we have forgotten where the real power is. We have forgotten who our loyalties ought to hold to no matter what, even if it’s not popular or even within our tribe. And the biggest thing we forgot is that the Father had this big plan. So we’ve been going through Ephesians in our church and we’re getting close to the end. It’s been a while, but what we found was that in Ephesians, Ephesians is really about how it is the church is to operate in its walking in righteousness. How do we walk in righteousness? So the first half really is talking about how things are, right? That’s how Paul usually does. He gives us an understanding of, “This is the way things are. ” And then the second half of the book is, “So therefore, this is how you should be walking.” But what it does is it really gives this crescendo in chapter four.

The Crescendo in chapter four, verses 13 through 16 tells us the ultimate plan that the Father has had all along that the Father is very excited about. He is excited about a plan for his son. His son is going to have a body, and Christ is going to be the head, and the body is going to be the church. Now, think about how the power that is in the church, the work that the Father expects out of the church, being the body of his son. So this crescendo happens in Ephesians four where you get to where he’s really getting at. There we see why God is equipping the church to be something that the Father is creating for the Son. And this creation is this body, which is the church. And so if you look at verse 13, this equipping of the saints is for the building up of Christ’s body until we attain the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.

Think about that. That’s a mouthful. So this unity of faith and the knowledge of the son is to make the church mature to the measure of the fullness of Christ himself, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by waves carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness and deceitful schemes. And I would even add, even in our tribalism, rather speaking the truth in and what would you expect to see? I mean, this faith, this unity, this knowledge of God, we would expect speaking the truth in good doctrine. That’s what we would expect to see. But instead it says, rather speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head. So the church is growing and how is it growing? It’s growing by way of speaking the truth in love.

So this love is actually the thing that’s causing the growing into Christ, from whom the whole body joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped when each part is working properly, when each part of our church is working properly, makes the body grow so that builds itself up in, and this is the whole goal to build itself up in what? In love. And here again, you see these components of love we saw in one John, where we see the presence of God is absolutely vital. The knowledge of God is absolutely vital. And the imitation, because this is how the next chapter is going to start, going to start, therefore, imitate God as little children. And so we see these three components to know the knowledge of God, to have his presence with us, that we might be able to imitate him, that is how the church grows and that power that God has entrusted to the church, we should have confidence in because it’s going to grow through the love that we have, not only for God, but even for each other, and that’s what makes it so powerful.

But if we don’t love each other, if we don’t understand that we won’t grow, there’ll be no power.

Sam Rohrer:

And ladies and gentlemen, we won’t grow. There’ll be no power and it’ll be very, very clearly seen to whom we point people, ourselves, others, things, or God above, to whom alone is worthy of all worship. Now that’s powerful, right? Renton Rathbun, thank you so much for being with me today. As always, what a pleasure and great, great instruction. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for being with us. Join us tomorrow and frankly, every day this week as there’ll be a program of great importance every day.